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5 groove barrell

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douglass View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 16 2010 at 5:04am
Hi all
without looking down a barrell how would i know if the lee enfield No 4 had a 5 groove barrell, 
would it be by dates, serial numbes or make ie long branch, faz, savage
any help would do as there is a few that i am interested in buying but cannot get to the dealer due to distance, or they dont know how many grooves it has.
 
here are some details about the rifle/s concerned
1--make- enfield lee,  model No 4 mk 1/2, refurbished post ww2 to bring it in line  with the later No 4 Mk 2  serial number C128*3
 
2- Fazakerly  No4 Mk2  reciever marked  F57 FTR
 
any help appreciated
douglas. 
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Shamu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2010 at 6:14am
Not 100% sure, but I don't recall ever hearing of a post war Faz with anything other than a 5 groove type. The 2 grove was a wartime expediency thing. If I had to guess I'd say all post war refurbs are probably the same as the war expedient features were replaced?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lithgow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2010 at 9:59am

As Shamu said, I am not sure that there was a specific date when they stopped fitting the 2 groove barrels. I also agree it is most likely an No4 Mk1/2 would have a 5 groove barrel.

 A lot of the Mk1 rifles that came to Australia after the war and until the 1960's still had 2 groove barrels.
Looking down the barrel it is quite obvious if it is a 2 or 5 groove barrel, they look very different. Do the gunshop have a No1 that they can compare it to as they were 5 groove and will look the same as the 5 groove No4 barrel, If they dont look the same, then the likelihood is that it will be a 2 groove.
Is there any reason you dont want a 2 groove barrel? they still shoot very well and I know that when the rifles were turned into range rifles, often they left the 2 groove in until it was time for a barrel replacement.
They do not always shoot well with BT bullets tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2010 at 10:00pm
Like he said, my Savage #4 Mk1* had a 2-groove one & it shot as well as the #4 MkII I have now with the 5-groove one.
It also didn't mind BT bullets, but that is not normal.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lithgow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 7:36am
The new barrels were ok with BT bullets but if they were used with MkVII ammo they generally would not accurately fire BT after that.
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douglass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote douglass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 5:54pm
hi all
thanks for the informative replies
douglass
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 10:07pm
"used with MkVII ammo"
I thought all MIlSurp was Mk VII! do you mean Mk VIII?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lithgow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 10:12pm
The MkVII had a flat base and was loaded with Cordite. The MkVIII had the BT bullet and NC propellant.
The Cordite had a different erosion pattern and is it is not uncommon for rifles that have seen use with Cordite ammo to be unable to stabilise the BT bullet, the result, keyholes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 17 2010 at 10:23pm
OK gotcha.
I was thinking of the BT bullets, but the propellants  were the answer.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RafaCalde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 9:05am
The only question I've ever had between 2 and 5 grooves is would more grooves mean slower or faster velocity? It's just something I've always wondered. I have no knowledge on loads or bullet weights. I only shoot surplus or brand name stuff. Can anyone shed light on this?
"I was just quickest on the trigger, or else he woulda killed me." Carlos Hathcock
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:25pm
never thought about that - added friction of additional grooves ? or added friction of more surface area of lands ? or are we splitting hairs here ? testing indicated both were acceptable to military standards of the time , i guess id be interested in the answer but it wont change my mind on any i own 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 2:37pm
The only question I've ever had between 2 and 5 grooves is would more grooves mean slower or faster velocity?

The 5 should give the same velocity as the 2 it's just the bullet stabilizes better. Easy way to check is to chronograph the bullets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2010 at 9:02pm
I've fired the same loads in my 2-groove Savage & my 5-groove Faz. Pretty much the same velocity out of both with 150 Gr flat-base bullets.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2010 at 5:14am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

never thought about that - added friction of additional grooves ? or added friction of more surface area of lands ? or are we splitting hairs here ? testing indicated both were acceptable to military standards of the time , i guess id be interested in the answer but it wont change my mind on any i own 
From my experiance in firing a wide variety of milsurp and sporting ammo, and my own handloads in two groove bores I would have to say that a Savage two groove bore with a .314-.316 major diameter is likely to be even more accurate with a wider variety of loads than a five groove bore with the same major diameter.
The broad land area seems to squeeze the bullet forcing the core to extrude the jacket deeper into the grooves. Whether this holds true for the wider grooved British two groove bores I couldn't say.
 
If both barrel types had the minimum major diameters then the advantage would go to the five groove bore, but very few wartime manufacture barrels had minmum major diameters.
 
Theres a theoretical advantage to uneven number of grooves, but this was established by testing in the Black Powder days when lead bullets were the only game in town. Earliest mention of the testing of even vs uneven number of grooves was in a book printed in the 1840's.
 
A loose major diameter doesn't usually shoot well with single base propellents and bullets much smaller in diameter than the major dia.
The Hornady .312 flat base spirepoint 150 grain has proven to be the most accurate out to 300 yards in every enfield I've tried it with regardless of bore diameters or number of grooves.
Heavier bullets probably would have the advantage at longer ranges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2010 at 10:51am
interesting , thank you 
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