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    Posted: August 29 2014 at 5:30am
I will go ahead and insert my 2 pennies.

Please don't get spun up at the police who are tasked with whatever stupid law your legislators passed. If it's a truly ignorant law chances are your local police department, deputies or troopers are probably more disgusted than you are; they have to take time from real crimes to enforce the new political emergency. If you don't know... you should that rank and file officers across the nation are strongly pro 2nd Amendment. The leadership of the FOP (to which I surrendered my membership some year ago) are ruthless political animals who happily trot out to support some of this ignorance and falsely claim they're the voice of the rank and file officers.Go ask most random officers about the vast majority of this crap and they will tell (if they are permitted) that they hate such laws but are prohibited from voicing a political related issue as an individual officer. In WV Deputy Sheriff's are not even permitted to put a campaign sign in their yard. Since your elected officials continue to pass laws that have been deemed constitutional by judges that were either elected by the public or appointed by the state legislators elected by the public. Don't take it out on the poor road patrol level officer. Become politically active and pay attention to who you vote for. Those legislators didn't draw straws to see who wins.

Next; retired LEO's who carry concealed. Most agencies I know of award a retired officer his/her service weapon along with federally mandated retired officer ID and firearms cards. People are correct when they say the retired LEO has no obligation to stop a crime or enforce the law (I'm quite enjoying that relief. Federal law requires the retired leo meet the same qualification standard as for active officers. Having watched several NRA concealed carry courses I can tell you there's no comparison. In several states the retired leo must take a physical after being retired for 5 years. They must do so on their own dime. The primary reason for this extension of concealed carry eligibility is that folks sometimes carry a grudge when you put them in prison. I retired last fall ( a little bit early due to health reasons) Next year a guy I put down for 12 years for a violent sexual assault and burglary gets out, among several others. This turd stood in open court and stated he would kill the victim, the prosecutor and me upon release. When he was a juvenile he practically decapitated an elderly woman with a dinner plate. In his confession he stated how funny he thought the noises she made when he jumped up and down on her chest before using the plate. Due to the law at the time he could not be held for any crime he committed as a juvenile past the age of 21. Apparently you would deny me or anyone else in my shoes to not have the benefit of a few extra rounds if I worked for the NYPD. Most guys (like me) have second jobs requiring a firearm. These jobs become the primary job once retired. When my pension kicks in it'll be around $900.00 per month. If I wasn't a vet and had to pay for my own insurance it would cost me a shade over $700.00 so that concealed carry and training is quite valuable. I can't speak for the NYPD because the farther North you go in this nation the stranger things are but I would guess that the older officers with say, over 10 years of service could care less how many rounds your handgun holds. Why are the cops so wound up over the restriction of magazines? Because they know if you give an inch they will take a mile and the next thing you know they will be required to check their guns in when they go of duty. They aren't trying to be the anointed ones they know the idiots running that city would love to begin restricting their ability to carry concealed after retirement, then move on to restrict carrying concealed when off duty. I have firsthand knowledge of 2 incidents in which a retired leo stopped violent crimes in this county. I was in a bad spot one night on I77 with 3 turds in a car I stopped. My backup was on the other end of the county; driving hard it takes 20 minutes. A retired Ohio trooper on his way to the beach stopped, ID'd himself and assisted me in removing and cuffing the 3 occupants. I know many CCW folks and they're good safe and competent firearms owners; the best kind of people but had one of them showed up I would've been grateful but they would essentially added to my area of responsibility because they wouldn't know the common tactics that multiple offenders use when dealing with a single officer. They wouldn't know what contact and cover means or what to do when one officer contacts one of the individuals in a situation like that. That's not a slam on the CCW holder nor am I inferring that I'm somehow superior. If I walked into a coal mine one day straight off of the street and you were an experienced miner you wouldn't want me piddling around where you're running some huge machine made to tenderize a human being. This retired guy and I took care of these sketchy guys and secured them just like we had worked together for years. Two of the three were career criminals wanted out of New York of all places for s series of armed robberies. The 3rd had over 2oz of powder and a bunch of dilaudid pills on him. If I had been distracted dring the little standoff we had I have no doubt they would've done the Mexican thing where they all jump out and rush you when you make contact with one of them.

Like I stated earlier the weather gets more and more strange the further North you go; that applies to officers and citizens. The idiot ratio increases the closer you get to The Mason Dixon line. I doubt anyone will really think about what I said because beliefs are hard to change and while no one would dare tell a firefighter how to fight a fire or cut you out of a vehicle but it seems every third person is a self appointed expert on law enforcement and every 2nd person just doesn't like the police even though he has never had contact with one in his life.

Guys, they don't make the laws, can't express their opinion about it either but they're charged with enforcing it. Cut them a little slack.

These are just a few reasons why retired leo's are permitted to carry once retired.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard/SIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 5:26pm
The problem is that while the "Good" cops demand we not paint with a broad brush too few of them do what is necessary to expose and stop the "Bad apples" among them.

As to enforcing stupid/unconstitutional law it's much the same.
No one should be able to force anyone to violate their conscience, "Just following my orders" was not accepted at Nuremberg.

I know that the statist find our constitution an obstacle to their ultimate goals and will continue to do all they can to ignore and obfuscate reality.

But let me post this very important fact!
"No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it. The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose, since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it."
16th American Jurisprudence 2d, Section 177 late 2nd, section 256:

We have "Whistle-blower" laws to protect those who try to do the right thing.
It's up to the public to make certain that doing the right thing is rewarded.

Another less well know quote, from a speaker unlikely to be thought of as one to address this topic.
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." -- Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2014 at 6:03pm
part of the problem is that law enforcement is only required to enforce the law once broken , and it is a whole lot easier to mess with folks that try to abide by the law but speed or jaywalk than those that seek to break and not get caught , in other words the guy that thinks he is abiding driving to work is an easier target than that career criminal bent on hiding his actions , 

do not get me wrong - i support the LEO community , i shoot with a bunch of them regularly , i just know first hand that the crime must be committed before they will act , and 911 is minutes away if that close , im no fool they cannot do it all , but the current 'system of justice' has no concern for you if you are the victim - particularly if you are alive , unless of course you were wearing the uniform ...that thin blue line , 

please do not pretend you are there to 'protect' , you may serve society as a whole , but you are tasked with investigating and arresting the perp after the crime - you cannot legally nor will do anything short of making your presence known before the crime takes place even if you know or reasonably assume it to be an immanent event , just the facts jack ........

you cannot by law violate the worst criminals civil rights , and while im not in favor of your doing so l find it ironic that the guy that tries to abide by every rule is most often the one arrested for a "crime" , he!!=even the "news" wont report any serious crime resolution here ... 

rest assured i never 'take anything out on my local road patrol officer' he is simply doing his job , but DO NOT back any government regulation of my second amendment right to be my first response to a life and death incident , YOU WILL NOT BE THERE IN TIME , 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2014 at 5:28am
Being "one of the idiots, close to the Mason-Dixon Line" I disagree. I've found as many pro & anti gun line officers down south as I've met up north.

Police officers are human. They need to pay the same bills, have the same debts & aspirations as the rest of us.

If it realistically comes down to a choice between remaining employed, or keeping the house & sending the kids to college,  many of them, but not all,  will choose the former, as would anyone else in their position.

One of the big problems here in MD is that we are told "Officer Friendly is your friend", but at the same time many of them are stalling the permit process (7-day waiting period was over 100 days at one point) & supporting things like the background check needing to be repeated (& charged for) after every 30-day interval. Not all, by  considerable margin are my friends, my friends wouldn't shaft me that way.

Many of them "talk the talk" but a great many less "Walk the walk". I feel bad for those that do, they have my respect & admiration, but those that MugWump the situation I'd prefer to at least be honest enough to admit the position they take.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lowspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2015 at 12:51am
I can't speak to the backlog on waiting periods, particularly in MD. My experience with them generally are specific to WV which mirrors the federal system; automated and a matter of minutes. Of course for Class III it does require a manual application and search. In this state  no police officer is involved in any part of the application process and only in dealer or Class III permits. As I said above I won't dare try to offer an opinion on another state. As far as the Mason-Dixon reference I believe I could've stated in more clearly - I meant in terms of the laws passed, not individual citizens. I do, however know for as close as what passes for facts these days that individual LEO's in the Northeast are found, per capita, to be more supportive of increased restrictive gun laws versus their southern counterparts. The published legislative opinions of their unions and fraternal organizations also reflect this. 
In terms of individual officers and even agencies; not one of them created the legislation that they're charged with then following them. I can only draw a comparison on time limits; here completed reports on DUI arrests and all crash reports must be submitted within 48 hrs of the event - sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. 
There's plenty of blame to pass around however if one is to look at the vast bulk of friction caused between citizens and the police it's caused not by the officers or their agency... It's caused by the legislation itself. I've been around for a minute or three and I've never met a LEO who ever passed a piece of legislation. Officers can, to varying extents, lobby for or against varying items (see above North / South remarks) but by and large we as individuals are limited in individual political activities.
I wandered a little bit in my initial post, it was to explain the logic behind CCW for retired LEO's nationwide which I believe is missed by a lot of folks who see it as a retired guy being above the law so to speak. While in the more restrictive jurisdictions this may be true. However retired guys who do carry are also required to jump through hoops post retirement private citizen CCW permit holders do not have to so it's not exactly a free CCW permit.
I'm sorry this has taken so long to reply to - I often forget where I'm parked while I'm in my living room too. I don't want to engage in a long series of posts back and forth I just wanted to clarify some of what I said earlier.  I hope this finds everyone doing well in the new year!
     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2015 at 7:22am
No problem we can disagree & still get on, that's why I like this forum so much.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2015 at 6:39pm
and please dont take any of our "discussion" as a personal affront , we are simply airing our oppinions in the free speech ,manner we are [us older folks] accustomed to , we appreciated your post or we woulds not have responded so fully , 

one of my good friends here is recently retired [just months] police chief of a town near me , he presents our CCW courses at my local range , he shoots three gun competition [damn well too] he and i have discussed this situation at length , there is a small latitude allowed police officers to use discretion , but its there and "all laws" are 'interpreted' by those enforcing them at every level , in the end one might be ruled innocent but interpretation can put you through he!! , and using your firearm to defend yourself .....will be very expensive and extensively uncomfortable to say the least and no matter how "right" you were , YOU will be the one on trial - even if the dead guy killed your whole family before you got off the shot , 

by the letter of the law you are on solid ground - in legal terms you are guilty till proven innocent , but the other guy that killed your whole family - he is  now a victim , 


as to retired police officers having CCW ...im of the opinion they should as i am of the opinion all law abiding citizens should , i actually believe the second amendment allows everyone that without the damn paperwork , i think only the criminals and mentally unfit should loose that right and that the background check should be required to remove the right not permit it , 

i shoot trap with a local sheriff deputy and his wife a local police woman , ive shot three gun matches with a number of swat officers from surrounding cities , one of my neighbors is a local prison guard recently retired we shoot trap league together , 
my neighbor is a local policeman and veteran of foreign wars , we agree on most things [except brand of beer] so i know first hand that there are cops that think correctly here , 
but every one of them admits that they put their life on the line every day going to work so they have to think carefully how they deal with every incident - and yes they are well aware that their "JOB" lies in the hands of politicians as well as bad guys ...........

bottom line ............im pro-gun , im pro-carry , im also pro-cop , but as a law abiding citizen i have no illusions that my rights are safe these days 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lowspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2015 at 11:47pm
Fellas I'm probably going to blow a mind or two here but bear with me and try to look through my eyes and see if this makes sense to you guys. I know it may sound kooky but I came to realize it when I retired and ran into another retired guy who asked me what it felt like to "get my rights back".
 
I'm sure things vary from location to location. I've either led investigations or been involved peripherally in 4 incidents in which firearms were used to protect life limb or property by private citizens. We (law enforcement and the prosecuting atty) followed the same protocol as a officer involved shooting except the shooter was given more latitude as there was no parallel investigation to determine whether he or she followed policy as there is no policy obviously for private citizens. In each of the shootings if use of force policy were applied 2 would have been considered in policy and 2 out of policy. If they had been LEO's they would've been disciplined if not dismissed. Just as an officer involved shooting they were presented to the grand jury and (correctly) no true bill was returned each time.
Then there was a fifth one that we determined was a set up to allow a boyfriend to kill the husband in a staged burglary - dumba**sery run amuck.
 
Maybe it's a jurisdictional thing but I've been on the side of being investigated in a shooting as well as being the investigator in an OIS shooting and I would much rather be a private citizen being investigated in a shooting.
 
I know it doesn't seem to make sense but as a private citizen I'm more free to use lethal force than I was at any time during my career. It sounds strange to say it in light of all the recent happenings but it's the truth. I have no obligation to use verbal commands, create space and time, de-escalate, employ less lethal tools, etc. As a private citizen I can just drop the hammer as long as I can define the threat. I cannot be charged with any civil rights violation under the color of law, etc. I'm free of all of those responsibilities. Now since I've already been in a few shootings and didn't enjoy them very much; paper targets don't shoot back and it's a little different than knowing simunitions are coming your way :) I won't be trying to enjoy my new freedom to use deadly force but believe me; it is there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lowspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2015 at 12:06am
I hate to post a post to add something I forgot. Only 1 of the individuals retained an attorney who simply stood by during interviews and got paid. At no time were any of the people charged. The case was simply presented to the grand jury. Their peers determined whether a crime was committed, we simply gathered and presented all of the evidence and facts determined in the investigation. That's how the system is supposed to work. In each case the individual cooperated fully with us and therefore got their point of view, impressions and reactions out there in a visceral manner. Obviously the physical evidence concurred with their statements and that's what the grand jury got. Of course we couldn't help but to feel for the persons involved and hoped the evidence would bear out their story. As an investigator that information provided by the shooter is critical. The crucial right to remain silent in one case would've likely led the evidence to point to manslaughter as opposed to a no true bill. Fortunately the shooter told his story and it fit the evidence like a jigsaw puzzle. I certainly tried my best to respect those rights during my career. That often derided statement that the "innocent don't need a lawyer" truly is a two way street. Sometimes it really is the truth and retaining a lawyer only results in him telling you to cooperate and sitting in a chair earning big bucks while you tell your story as well as you could've without him. I've seen more attorneys screw their clients than the system ever has.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2015 at 8:55am
i firmly believe in the lawyer to represent and advise the innocent that are accused just as the guilty - our judicial system is manipulated by smart lawyers and judges with agendas , its a fact jack ....

to go in without a lawyer [ the best you can find] is just plain stupid , and those cops deserved the best their is , 

OK , and im going to ad the i think the POTUS has weighed in where he should not have and in too many cases selected the wrong side [only to be proven wrong] which made him look pretty small in the big picture , 
if he had not come from the community organizer attitudes he would not jump to the defense without gathering the facts first , past presidents were above those spontaneous spews of prejudice without consultation , 

which leads me to wonder just how narcissistic he is - he has at his disposal the instant resources to get the facts straight before opening his big mouth why on earth would he not avail himself to maintain credibility - it is presidential to actually know what your talking about before you say anything , 

and then he could still lie if he chose to - it would just have more credibility because he wouldn't have to bumblingly ad-lib , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lowspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2015 at 1:25am
A square. I didn't mean to imply that retaining counsel when innocent is a bad idea at all. I was only describing examples in which a lawyers advice to not cooperate to an innocent person in situations such as I described would've led to much more hassle, expense and more of an exposure to a trial and guilty verdict ( as I swear there's no telling what a jury will do). When explaining their perceptions and so forth could only aid in a more complete investigation tending to aid in the investigation and resulting grand jury vindicating the individual as opposed to to case I mentioned in which a silent individual would've left us and the jury with only the physical evidence at the scene which made the individual look like an executioner at best. With his cooperation the case took on a whole new light and he was no true billed just as he should've been. By sitting quiet throughout the entire process he would likely still be in prison to this day. I'm simply trying to present the other side of the coin. A thorough impartial investigator isn't out to "get" anyone. He is there to gather the facts and let the evidence lead him to a resolution. Those facts are then presented to a grand jury. Of course numerous times arrests take place prior to the grand jury but every person charged must be indicted before trial unless they waive that right. Even when an arrest is made our peers are the ones who decide if a citizen is to be tried. I do enjoy these civilized exchanges btw.
 
I certainly agree with our president interjecting himself into petty local law enforcement issues. No one ever asked what that officer would've been faced with had he not verified the identity of the professor and walked away to let a burglar carry the mans stuff off.
 
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