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Irish Contract Enfield

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sjuhockey10 View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 11 2012 at 8:26am
This is getting to be an expensive undertaking Tongue


12/53 production No. 4 Mk 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 8:53am
SUPER!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArcherSix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 11:08am
Very Nice, looks really clean.
 
And now I'm curious. What makes this an 'Irish Contract' rifle, and what's the significance of that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjuhockey10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 12:32pm
Certain serial number blocks of No. 4 Mk 2s produced at Fazakerly in 1953/54 were allocated to various parts of the Empire. 50,000 of them were slated to go to Ireland, but due to the political climate tree rifles were never delivered. This rifle is within that serial number block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 12:40pm

Many 1950s production rifles are called Irish Contract particularly the one that came unissued in the mummy wrap but  as the proud owner above said the Irish contract had a specific serial number range:  PF309348-PF359747

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 10:15pm
There is a lot of debate about the "Irish Contract Rifles"to say the least. Some swear they were at least partially delivered & so on. Here's the quick 'n dirty summary of the saga from various websites.
====================================

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=34901

The so called "Irish Contract" rifles are in the serial range PF309348 to PF 359347.Most were never delivered and put in storage until sold as surplus.

The UF suffix rifles are generally identified as Ministry of Defense contract rifles thought to be for the RAF but put directly into storage and never issued. It is speculated the contract was a "make work" contract to keep the factory open.

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/shooting-hunting-fishing/96133-questions-about-lee-enfield-mk4-no-2-a.html

The changeover from Mk1 to Mk2 production is believed to have occurred at rifle number "PF 100000".

Most of the last PF-marked Mk1s and early Mk2s seem to have gone to South Africa. Such rifles now appear with an SA property mark on the Knox form - an "arrow inside a U".

Because the British Army had millions of Mk1s in store they didn't need Mk2s, so most of the Mk2 production was done in batches for export to Commonwealth countries, or for commercial sale, or for RAF service.

An incomplete list:

PF301548-PF304047 Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
PF309348-PF359347 Irish Republic
PF359748-PF359817 Zambia
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore
PF359953-PF360052 Jamaica
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad
PF360203-PF360238 St. Vincent
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts
PF360259-PF360459 War Office
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda
PF361160-PF361259 Parker Hale
PF361260-PF401086 Burma
PF401087-PF401459 Allocated for T conversion
PF404157-PF404206 Parker Hale
PF405393-PF405412 St. Vincent
PF405513-PF405712 Admiralty contract
PF405813-PF405848 Fulton
PF407649-PF407648 Trinidad
PF407649-PF407728 Zanzibar
PF411229-PF411264 Fulton
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong

Some of these contracts were not delivered. A case in point being the "Irish Contract". Daft spams pay a premium for these because they think they're getting a piece of Oirish history. In fact most of the rifles never left UK warehouse until they were sold as surplus.

In 1954, the numbering system changed to the form "UF Axxxxx", which is the version still used today for the SA80. The 1950s "UF A xxxxxx" rifles are built to a better finish compared to most of the "PFs". These rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in store until they were sold off.

Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley
No 4 Mk II Production Serial Numbers


Looking at the large number of late Mk1s/early Mk2s coming out of South Africa with govt property stamps on them, perhaps we can pencil in PF 100000 as the first Mk2, and PF 100000 to - say - PF 120000 as "South Africa"......?

PF 100000 PF 120000 South Africa?
PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.
PF 218000 PF 219799 N/K 1800
PF 219799 PF 275947 N/K 56,148
PF 225948 PF 250947 N/K 25,000

Circa 1951/52

PF 250948 PF 301547 British Army 50,600
PF 301548 PF 304047 Sudanese Order 2499
PF 304048 PF 309347 N/K 5300
PF 309348 PF 359347 Irish Republic 49,999?
PF 359348 PF 359747 N/K 400
PF 359748 PF 359817 Zambia 469
PF 359818 PF 359852 Singapore 34
PF 359953 PF 360052 Kingston 99
PF 360053 PF 360202 Trinidad 149
PF 360203 PF 360238 St Vincent 35
PF 360239 PF 360258 St Kitts 19
PF 360259 PF 360459 War Office? 200
(21 missing numbers)
PF 360480 PF 361159 Uganda 679
PF 361160 PF 361259 Parker Hale 99
PF 361028 10/53
PF 361280 PF 401086 Burma 39,806
PF 401087 PF 401495 No 4 (T) Rifles ? 408
PF 401496 PF 404156 N/K 2661
PF 401157 PF 404206 Parker Hale 3049
PF 404207 PF 405392 N/K 1186
PF 405393 PF 405412 St Vincent 19

Circa 1954

PF 405413 PF 405512 N/K 100
PF 405513 PF 405712 Admiralty 100
PF 405713 PF 405812 N/K 100
PF 405813 PF 405848 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 405849 PF 407448 N/K 1600
PF 406534 10/49
PF 407449 PF 407648 Trinidad 199
PF 407649 PF 407728 Zanzibar 79
PF 407729 PF 411228 N/K 3500
PF 411229 PF 411264 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 411265 PF 411481 Kenya 216
PF 411482 PF 411471 ? Hong Kong 11
(Confusion of batch No’s!)
PF 411472 PF 412789 N/K 1318

1951 Special Order

PP1 PP43 Parker Hale
PP44 PP47 To an unknown UK source

Did I just find something interesting?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61726606

 

In relation to Lee Enfield No.4s 'Irish Contract'. I've seen this mentioned in other, often American forums and invariably they quote some guy called Stratton who said

"...The rifle was manufactured for the Irish Republic, but because of political problems (duh) the rifle was never delivered and was kept in storage.

Well (duh) I don't recall any political problems in 1953 that would have stopped the delivery of those rifles. I can't help but think it's one of those myths that grew legs.

When I was in the FCA and trained on the .303. I saw brand new .303s both wrapped and unwrapped in the armory in Griffith barracks. I also believe after the FCA transitioned to the FN, that many older .303s were dumped in the Irish Sea but the 'new' and cleaner rifles sold onto the market. There was a so-called controversy at the time from certain newspapers who worried they would fall into the hand of terrorists. This at a time when all terrorists had an AK-47.

So does anyone here know the truth? Was there an Irish contract that was never delivered or were they in fact war surplus British stocks as suggested by some. Or are they in fact actually surplus ex Irish army never issued and sold on to America?

AFAIK what are referred to as "Irish Contract" are the ones sold by the Irish Government after the FCA were given the FN

Do a search on

 http://www.vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/index.php

 (The Irish Classic rifle forum) and you will get more info

NB updated link !

 

Pedroibar, I can safely that I never saw a .303 dated earlier than the 1950s when I was in the FCA. Some were actually 'new' out of the wrapping and dated 1953. They were all No.4 rifles. The ones you refer to must be No.IIIs and were probably issued to the army in the 1940s until replaced by the No.4s probably in the 50s.

I never saw any rifles dated earlier than the 1950s, which is not to say they didn't exist.

Thanks bunny, I think so too. I just wonder where this idea of an impounded batch came from.

 

In reality the "Irish contract" rifles were nothing more than rifles that had the FF Oglich na Eireinn stamp on them. They ran a specific serial number.[Cant remember what it is]
They were apparently only partially delivered due to either money problems in the Govt here or the FN SLR was starting to debut and Army decided to upgrade totally to the FN.
ASFIK they were sold to the US in the late 1980s early 1990s,or when the FN went to the FCA.They were sold to Century Arms in Canada for the US and Canada markets. Those that I have seen are pristine never fired rifles, and some smart buyers still have them in their "sleeping bags”. Be lucky now if you could get one for around $400 plus. A lot of US collectors have twigged the FF stamp value.

 

Irish Contract "Blondes" dated 1950 - 1955 with the PF serial number where sold to Century Arms in the U.S. for £10 punts a rifle I believe. These where the ones stored in Ireland. There was I believe a consignment of Irish Contract Rifles held in the UK that where manufactured in the Fazerkly plant but the consignment never left the UK

As to why they didn't get delivered, well if you look at the fact bolt action rifles for general military issue where being phased out in other European countries and the FN was being looked at in most as the replacement plus the cartridge of choice was moving to the NATO 7.62 x 51 round not the .303.

To re-barrel all those rifles, estimated 50,000 in the contracted, to the new smaller 7.62, not economical. I think this is why they were not delivered personally.
And
In reality the "Irish contract" rifles were nothing more than rifles that had the FF Oglich na Eireinn stamp on them. They ran a specific serial number. [Can’t remember what it is]
 

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjuhockey10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2012 at 11:49pm
Thanks for all the info, Shamu.  I've read some of that here and there, but some new info in there as well.

This rifle looks like it may have been delivered or issued at some point, as there are a few dings here and there that appear to be fairly old, but who knows.

Here's this mark on the forward part of the receiver, which I've seen on other Irish Contract rifles.  No one seems to know what it is, though I've seen speculation of it being the Irish "harp" emblem.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 12:18am
nice grab , you are on a role , and congrats thats a really nice example , i see you have been adequately informed on the "irish" thing so ill not add to the above ,  
 
i never got any excitement from the "irish" thing , but i appreciate that many have and its fun when i see someone get one , my mk2 is of the burma contract , i did pick up a nice FTR mkI/2 and am looking for the mkI*/3 , and yes this is an addiction that can get a bit costly if indulged to its fullest ,
 
one thing i found that helps control that urge to buy every one you lay eyes on is to lay out your theme early on , some like the idea of collecting every year of production of a certain model , others one of every manufacturer , i like geting a nice example of each model/mark that i can find without regard to mfgr or year produced ,
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjuhockey10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2012 at 6:24am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

nice grab , you are on a role , and congrats thats a really nice example , i see you have been adequately informed on the "irish" thing so ill not add to the above ,  
 
i never got any excitement from the "irish" thing , but i appreciate that many have and its fun when i see someone get one , my mk2 is of the burma contract , i did pick up a nice FTR mkI/2 and am looking for the mkI*/3 , and yes this is an addiction that can get a bit costly if indulged to its fullest ,
 
one thing i found that helps control that urge to buy every one you lay eyes on is to lay out your theme early on , some like the idea of collecting every year of production of a certain model , others one of every manufacturer , i like geting a nice example of each model/mark that i can find without regard to mfgr or year produced ,
 

To be honest, I don't really get a huge thrill out of the Irish bit either.  I was looking for a No. 4 Mk 2 in general when I stumbled across this one, and since other people do value the (potentially non-existant) Irish connection, it seemed like a worthwhile piece to pick up.  If nothing else, I won't be losing money on the deal.

I'm still working on adding some sort of perspective to my collection.  My initial intent was leaning towards the earlier models, since the No. 1 is what I really fell in love with originally, but I seem to be gathering up No. 4s -- what a horrid fate Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2012 at 1:36am
i suspect that had you taken the no1 angle you would still have gone to the no4 & 5 eventually anyway so its good that you are open to the idea when these nice examples are presenting themselves , one must jump on them when they are found or we miss out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cruisedub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2015 at 9:50pm
All Irish contract Lee Enfield's were sold as surplus by the Irish Government to Interarms of Canada . They were disposed of in several batches , the myth that they not delivered due to political troubles is just that , a myth .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2015 at 2:31pm
thats an interesting spin on the theme i had not heard , what did interarms do with them and how did so many end up here in the states ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cruisedub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2015 at 6:22pm
The Irish Department of Defense sold the rifles to interarms in the following order
1991___ 5,889
1993___ 20,000
1994___ 8,000
1996/97___ 16,000
How they were distributed by Interarms I don't know .
Also it's probable that some Mk4T are still held in storage in Ireland , at least there were up until about eight years ago . They were held in a armoury just south of the border with the six counties .My source for this information is someone who saw them in storage .
Just as an aside Lee Enfield No1 mark 3 were still in service with the Irish Army reserve up until 1973 and maybe beyond . They were equipped with a Energa grenade launcher and used solely for that purpose .There were also .22 No1 mk3 used as trainers at that time .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2015 at 11:30pm
Has anybody ever asked the Irish themselves if they received any  rifles.
 
There was no "political Troubles" with the republic itself.
 
The troubles themselves refer to the north....the occupied north
 
what does Skennerton say?
 
I too have an Irish contract No.4 Mk2.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 5:24am
This should be easy enough to prove or disprove.
When did the sale take place, more importantly when were they imported into the U.S?

"The Irish Department of Defense sold the rifles to interarms in the following order
1991___ 5,889
1993___ 20,000
1994___ 8,000
1996/97___ 16,000"

If there's an "Irish Contract" Enfield without an Interarms import mark then its suspect, particularly as we know the serial numbers.

Has anyone a record of one purchased before these import dates?Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2015 at 9:05am
would like to point out that i was not questioning the posters truethfulness , my questions were meant to expand the conversation for the edification of all , i do appreciate hearing of the source tho as it adds to the info , 

i would love to hear from those that have an irish contract who the import marking is on their individual rifles to expand the conversation further , with the posted dates i think all will be marked , 

in tiurn just for chits and giggles im going to check out my burma contract rifle ....if i can get to it , 
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