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No. 4 Service Rifle Accuracy

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MJ11 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: No. 4 Service Rifle Accuracy
    Posted: February 28 2018 at 2:42pm
........Thumbs Up.......

While not really a 100 yard target rifle they can do OK like this five shot string. But they get happy at 500+ yards.



.........Cheers........
The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2018 at 9:33am
Originally posted by MJ11 MJ11 wrote:

Wow I can't compete with that. But it's a but harder when the targets are shooting back..Tongue

Cheers


 
Yup!!! Which is why in that case, the M1 Rifle might have been a better choice.  Hard to imagine going thru all the steps to take a series of 600 yard shots while someone 100 yards away is shooting back!  Steady hold position, natural point of aim, sight picture/alignment, breathing, trigger control.  Sure, a well hidden sniper would do this for a 600 yard shot.  That's where I'd like to have a good No. 4(T).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2018 at 8:07am
Wow I can't compete with that. Bit it's a but harder when the targets are shooting back..Tongue



Cheers


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Macd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2018 at 5:22am
Again great shooting.  600 yards, aperture sights and all in the 9-X.  I am envious.  Very skilled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 6:32pm
Regarding potential longer range accuracy, here’s what I’ve been able to get with my LB No. 4 prone with sling at 600 yards.   In this case, I am using the PH5c aperture rear sight that was allowed in the Service Rifle Class B Bisley matches under NRA rules used by the UK and Commonweath countries back in the day that the LE was the Service Rifle.   

The pic below is the NRA Mid Range (MR) target overlay on the 600 yard target.   Holding the 10 ring for 10 rounds is much tougher to do on the MR target, which is intended for prone slow fire. The 10 ring measures 12 inches (2 MOA) diameter with a 6 inch (1 MOA) X-Ring; whereas the SR target at 200 yards has a 3.5 MOA 10 ring and 2.5 MOA X-Ring Note: The SR target at 200 yards is intended for NRA High Power Rifle standing position and sitting rapid fire; although it is also used in the CMP Vintage Military Rifle Match for prone slow and rapid fire. Dealing with wind becomes a real issue at 600 yards, rarely significant at 200 yards.

As a comparison, the Bisley 500 and 600 yard target had a 15 inch diameter Bull (the 5 ring, 50 point possible score for a 10 round string, no X-Ring) used in the Service Rifle matches. I believe we have an advantage over what our fathers faced shooting these rifles at Bisley, we use handloads with match bullets.

You can see on the monitor pic below that the center to center extreme spread is 305 millimeters, which is right at 12 inches (2 MOA). I dropped the last three shots, one just outside the 10 ring (a 9.9), the sun had just come out and I didn’t consider the affect it has on the apparent size of the black aiming mark: “lights up, sights up”. I’ve not yet managed to clean a 600 yard target with my No. 4, but I believe the rifle is capable.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 6:24pm
In closing (on my part) weapons of war are an ongoing evolution. Fists, rocks, sharp sticks, etc. up to current drones, smart bombs, etc. Tactics, however, seem to have changed very little over history. Interesting discussion. Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Macd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

I would expect a lot more bullets per body with the auto's and semi auto's when compared to the bolt action. However each has it's advantages. If your clearing rooms in a building, an auto would be better than a bolt action. But out in open country or defending a building; being able to pick off adversaries at a distance without wasting ammo; it's got to be the bolt action. 
Just my point of view of courseWink


Many rounds are expended to suppressing or grazing fire with automatic weapons.    Small unit tactics have evolved around this and the quick attack flanking maneuver relies to a large extent on overwhelming fire to keep the enemies heads down while a squad gets into flanking position.  In urban areas the same tactic is used to suppress fire from cover while advancing to engage.  In terrain that creates opportunities for long range engagement the same type of tactic can be employed if the weapon being used has the range.  This is one of the shortcomings of the current crop of light calibre weapons and armies have taken to equipping unit specialists with heavier calibre weapons to address this shortcoming.   The return of the M14 to the ranks in the Afghan conflict is one example.  I would prefer to have a FAL (FNC1) equipped with an optical sight in these circumstances.  With its 20 round mag and 7.62x51 punch and reach it would quickly rule any firefight against WW2 bolt action rifles at distances out to 1000 meters.  As I young infantry officer in training I was admonished by very senior and experienced NCO during an exercise when I failed to engage the opposite team from a distance well beyond 1000 meters.    Lesson learned Sargent Major.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 3:40pm
Kinda my point. Garand vs Enfield fo urban fighting? Both heavy, unwieldy in hallways, alleys, etc. Not the weapon you want. Sten? What can I say? SAS, British, Canadian Para's and Commandos? Priceless! Thompson? Loved by all! Lots of knockdown power, but tough to control. In ranges over 100 yds, personally, I would rather have 10 mates shooting 15 rpm (150 total with bolt rifle) and incapacitating 1 enemy, rather than 10 buddies shooting 40-50 rpm (400-500 rpm total) with the same results. Especially if I was an ammo carrier! Just my opinion based on the type of warfare encountered in WW2 as written in the history books.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 1:50pm
I did an anti-terrorist course years & years ago. It involved 2 Sterlings, 4 guys & 4 hand grenades. The premise was there were only Terrs in the room, no hostages or friendlies.

The gunners were inside the formation, closest to the door the grenadiers were behind them corps a corps close.
Both Sterlings had the butts extended. Each was held kind of sideways so the body wasn't in line with the door, but the barrels were. Both stitched a semi circle together, making one raggedy circular perforation about 10" in diameter. It was struck by both butts as the Sterlings were flipped end over end.
The gunners dropped & the grenadiers who'd pulled the pins on all 4 with fingers of opposite hands, flipped them through the hole, 2 to the left the other 2 to the right. Then they left rapidly.

One guy asked if they should check the room, the instructor said : "My son, you don't want to look in that room"!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 12:51pm
"Clearing rooms"..that would be the infamous ROOM BROOM - aka the Sten gun.
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 11:19am
I would expect a lot more bullets per body with the auto's and semi auto's when compared to the bolt action. However each has it's advantages. If your clearing rooms in a building, an auto would be better than a bolt action. But out in open country or defending a building; being able to pick off adversaries at a distance without wasting ammo; it's got to be the bolt action. 
Just my point of view of courseWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 8:34am
Macd, you bring up some interesting points. I wonder if any stats are available for amount of rounds expended vs injured, KIA combatants. What ratio by bolt rifles, what by semi or auto. I would like to see WW2 stats, as I think that's when semi or auto personal battle rifles were issued enmasse. Can't count crew served MG's. Must be personal. Allied and Axis included. I have a feeling the ratio would surprise some, probably me most!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Macd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 6:18am
Exceptional marksmanship with an exceptional rifle.  I have never owned an M1 but have had a number of Lee Enfields over the years.  All would not  come close to that level of accuracy.   My present one is a Parker Hale #4.  It remains to be seen what level of accuracy it is capable of producing.

With regard to battle rifles,I think I would rather have a M1.  There are reasons the M1 was better than a LE or any other bolt action rifle used in WWII  The reasons were firepower (40-50 aimed rounds per minute versus 15 for the LE) and the ease of training of 100,000's citizen soldiers to use them effectively.  The Germans realized this as well as the Russians even before the war began.   To be sure the M1 had shortcomings such as not being able to top up the magazine because it used en bloc clips or the need to keep it cleaned and lubricated.  Unless specially selected and tuned it can't approach bolt action accuracy but then it didn't need it.   Most combat took place at fairly close ranges less than 200 meters.  Centre of body mass is the rule assuming the average soldier is actually aiming with any degree of concentration in the middle of an adrenaline high.  A wound is as good as a kill and sometimes even better.  There are reasons every army in the world has shifted their primary long arm to either semi, burst and/or full auto carbines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2018 at 4:31am
The Service rifle competitions are great fun.
 In France we have 5 shots in 5 minutes practice; then7 minutes for 10 rounds prone (precision) and 3 minutes for 10 rounds prone (rapid).
 I also compete in the .22 military trainer class at 50 metres; using one of my No8 Lee Enfields, or occasionally the No2MkIV*.
The No8 is a great little rifle and generally very accurate once you've found the correct ammunition for it. I have two No8's and they don't like the same ammo';but with the right stuff they'll both shoot equally well.
Trainer class has 5 shots prone practice; then 10 prone in 5 minutes and 10 standing in 3 minutes.
Slight disadvantage with the single shot rifles is having to move to pick up and load the next round, so can cause a few errors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2018 at 7:31pm
For those of you in other parts of the world, the Civilian Marksmanship Program Vintage Military Rifle matches are shot in three stages starting with prone slow fire (single shot feeding only). 5 sighters followed by 10 shots for score in 15 minutes total. Each shot is spotted, or with the electronic targets, each shot is displayed on the monitor. It’s not too difficult to shoot a clean 200 yard Prone slow fire score, but for me, I usually drop one low due to poor sight alignment or getting off my natural point of aim. The SR target has a 7 inch 10 ring (3.5 MOA) and the LE is certainly capable of that. The X ring is 3 inches, 1.5 MOA and I’ve shot my No. 4 in Prone slow fire with 8 or 9 of the 10 shots in the x ring a few times. But, I’ve never been able to do as well in a match as I have in practice. Maybe that’s true for most of us.

The next stage is 10 shots prone raid fire, which includes a magazine reload, in 80 seconds. The stage starts with 5 rounds in the mag, bolt closed on an empty chamber, safety on and shooter standing. On the “Targets” command, the shooter drops to prone and shoots the first 5 shots then loads the next 5 rounds in the mag. At this point I take a quick glance at the monitor. If Shooting paper targets, then here is no way to know how your doing. Honestly, I’m not sure if there is any advantage of seeing the first five shots or not. The target pic I posted in the OP was from the prone rapid fire stage.

Third stage is standing slow fire, 10 rounds in 10 minutes. This is a real challenge and where the game is either won or lost. This is also the stage that the most improvement in score can be made. I started out typically completely missing the target for one or two of the 10 shots. Try it sometime, it’s not easy! I’ve slowly worked up from a score in the low 70’s to the high 80s, occasionally into the low 90s. My best was a 94. You quickly learn to call your shots. Dry fire practice does help, but I can’t seem to motivate myself to keep up with it.

These are usually shot at 200 yards for all three stages on the same NRA Short Range target, but some are shot on a SR-1 target reduced for 100 yards.

These matches are a lot of fun, and gets you out shooting and striving to improve. It’s also interesting to see how other military vintage bolt rifles do. The Pattern 17 Rifle (M1917 Enfield in .30-06) usually does very well. M1s and 1903 Springfield’s are excluded from this match, they have their own class in the CMP Games matches.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2018 at 2:47pm
Shamu. I found the same issue when I installed that walnut cheek piece from Numrich on my No4 Parker Hale last week. The farther the bolt is pulled back, the more "up and down" movement it can have. Worse case scenario, as this is a sporter hunting rifle, I'll Dremel a small v where the bolt can hit. Not an issue yet as I'm aware of it when I cycle the bolt.
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