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Reloading the .303 British for accuracy at 100 yar

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Stanforth View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 12 2018 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Pukka Bundook Pukka Bundook wrote:

Re. re-sizing;
My 1923 Lithgow is so tight, I have to full length re-size brass for it if used in another rifle, and turn the case in the holder 3 times and size it again.  after the normal procedure, the case still does not fit.
Factory brass no problem though.  (1954 barrel)
 
Try using a different set of dies. Borrow a set and try them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dux-R-Us Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2018 at 3:52pm
http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Closed_Form_Precision#Variance_Estimates

Interesting, albeit heady, discussion of accuracy and group sizes.   You can ignore the statistical math and still get the drift of the paper.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2018 at 10:00am
If you are indexing each fired case you just left service rifle competition and entered the dark world of BENCH REST.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2018 at 6:56am
Re. re-sizing;
My 1923 Lithgow is so tight, I have to full length re-size brass for it if used in another rifle, and turn the case in the holder 3 times and size it again.  after the normal procedure, the case still does not fit.
Factory brass no problem though.  (1954 barrel)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2018 at 6:49am
With a well done partial resize that doesn't happen! The last fraction of an inch of the neck is un-sized & so centers the case mouth perfectly as its chambered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2018 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

One of the .303's biggest quirks is the variation in chamber shape from rifle to rifle. Because of this I use something called "Partial full length resizing".



One techique I have not tried is fireforming the case and maintaining consistent case orientation in the chamber. Filing or scribing a small notch in the rim edge as an index mark.   Subsequent neck sizing maintains the alignment of the neck and bullet with the bore axis. It’s been shown many years ago that a bullet that is started into the rifling not concentric axis of the bore will result in poor accuracy as the bullet corkscrews down the barrel.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2018 at 3:18pm
Whatever powder or bullet you use (150 -180 gr), in my humble opinion, it is not designed to be a "speed demon". In fact, my most accurate loads are usually about 75-80% between minimum and maximum. I suspect a deer, elk, moose or paper target won't know the difference of less than 100 per/sec... until it's on your plate while the magnum boys flinched and missed!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2018 at 9:10am
While I stick to my original comment that these are not 100 yard target rifles I understand for the average Tommy there are fewer place to test with 300 yards to zero.

150g Game King and H4895 or RL15, I really can't tell the difference between the powders.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 1:19pm
On my No. 4, I've not really noticed much difference in the MOA group sizes at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yds.  That just might be my rifle, the forend is centre bedded by Fultons.  Standard muzzle bedding could be different.  Bullet quality could also have something to do with how quickly it stabilizes. 
 
When they first introduced the No. 4 conversion to 7.62, reports of accuracy were poor.  I'm convinced it had nothing to do with the rifle action or barrel; it was the typical ammunition being used.  I get excellent (for a LE anyway) accuracy with my No. 4 with a standard No. 4 service weight barrel in 7.62 with the 168 gr. SMK.  It's as good, or better than my Fulton .303 No. 4 at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards. 
 
I did not find any advantage at all with taper crimping the case mouth on the bullet.  I believe it is slightly detrimental as it is another variable.  Now, perhaps with low neck tension, it could help, but correcting neck tension is relatively easy, get a reduced size expander or mandrel (depending on what type of dies you are using).
 
For neck sizing, I use a Lee Collet die with a -0.001 mandrel (you can order these thru Lee).  I'm getting plenty of neck tension on the SMK .311 diameter bullet.  For a long throat, you will have to have some neck tension, there's no way your going to get near the lands. 
 
I typically trim cases back about 0.005 - .008 that have exceeded the maximum 2.222 inches after sizing.  Neck sizing doesn't usually change case length much, but I always check case length after sizing.  In the .303, it's tough getting sufficient bullet grip at magazine COL with a boattail bullet, so not trimming more than necessary helps; and it helps to reduce the variability (at least in my mind anyway!). I recently went to an RCBS auto case trimer which has taken a lot of time out of my reloading process, especially for auto-loading rifles that need more frequent trimming from the full length sizing process.
 
I also agree with the previous posts here that IMR 4064 and Re 15 are good choices, they both gave me good accuracy for the No. 4.  4895 would probably be good too.  My match load has been 40.0 gr. Re 15.  I'm now working on a Varget load, which seems to require more powder than most published data shows to get equivalent velocities of my Re 15 match load. 
 
I've settled on a COL of 3.05 inches as we shoot a rapid stage in the Vintage Military Rifle matches that require a reload via charger.  I just didn't see any improvement in accuracy with seating depths I've tried out to 3.10 which have to be fed single shot.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 8:36am
One of the .303's biggest quirks is the variation in chamber shape from rifle to rifle. Because of this I use something called "Partial full length resizing". I tried both regular full length & neck only & frankly both have both advantages & disadvantages.
It used to be a well known accuracy technique with .303, but has become a bit of a lost art. I've posted a description on here in the reloading forum, check it out. It basically uses an adjusted full length die to exactly match the fired brass to the chamber its being fired in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RayR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:52am
Never underestimate the value of a 32 power scope, as long as you can keep the gun stabilized and maintain good eye alignment at the same time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RayR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:50am
It is my understanding that the 303 British round stabilizes the most between 200 and 300 yards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RayR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:47am
Thank you for your information. It is consistent with my expectations for this project. I have found a few quirks so far during the neck sizing and neck trimming process.
1) My 0.3105" diameter bullet fits with a little pressure into cases that have been neck sized in my Lee Neck sizing die. My 0.312" diameter bullet won't go in by hand.
 
2) After resizing the neck in my L&M Precision Shooting Products neck sizer, (necessary to match the mandrel in my turning machine) my 0.3105" diameter bullet slides into the case without any noticeable friction while my 0.312" diameter bullet still can't be put into the case go in by hand.
 
After I trim the neck and try to resize the case again in the Lee neck Sizing die I do not get any change. I think that by shaving the neck down a few thousands of an inch keeps the Lee die from being effective. This means my first reloads will be using the 0.312" Hornady Match bullets.
 
I hope I can use the Lee Collet die to crimp bullets in the cases that don't seem to be able to hold the 0.3105" bullet firmly. I have my dobuts that I can maintain a COL, but I will find out.
 
I will try neck sizing with just the L&M sizer on my next batch of fire formed cases to see how well it works.
 
If the trimmed cases don't show any performance difference to cases I don't trim for, then I will skip that step in my load development cycle.
 
I found it curious that my benchrest shooting friend does not crimp his bullets into their case, but relies on the limited friction he gets when he shoves the bullets in by hand.
 
I agree on using 10 shot groups to determine the rifles real accuracy. I will use 5 shot groups to establish the developmental loads initial accuracy and then go back and fine tune that load using 10 round groups.
 
Concentricity may be the most surprising contributor to accuracy that I can effect. It dawns on me that the rifles axial alignment between the rifle bore to the receiver and the chamber can have a significant effect on accuracy. I wonder if this is the variable that is responsible for the most variation in accuracy between rifles made by the same manufacturer? This could account for the variations in accuracy seen among the Enfield rifles I've read about. This could explain why my old, beat up rifle with a highly used and scratched up bore is as accurate as it seems to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RayR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 7:02am
Your information agrees with what I've read. One source recommended the Remington cases over any of the others. I will be using up the ammunition I own and use their cases. When I get to the point where I have a reasonable load I'll consider getting new, unused cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2018 at 6:48am
The above threads got me thinking about my expectations with my Lee Enfields at the range. The only "accurazing" of done on all my Enfields was to take apart, clean and lightly lubricate moving parts, ensure bore is cleaned after every use, and reload bullets for consistency. I'm quite satisfied shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds.4" at 50 yds with my Enfield Battle Carbine. As primarily a hunter, these numbers are acceptable and repeatable. Hats off to some of the shooting exhibited by members of this forum!! Way above my skill!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2018 at 8:01pm
While I'm not an expert on anything I do know a few and the general thought is that the .303 is not a 100 yard target rifle.

I have seen and had some luck with the 150g Sierra Game King and IMR 4895 or RL15 at 100 yards. Past that it's 174g SMK's and 4064 or RL 19. The safe bet is with the flat base bullet in an unknown barrel. Plus with the known barrel whip built into the Enfield rifles they don't lay down till 300 yards unless highly tuned specials. I'm not commenting to argue this it is just that I'm repeating what is known and what i was told saw at Bisley by the days high score shooters. It was all above my pay grade till I had time to test it. I don't wedge, pack or shim my barrels and generally rely on the people smarter than myself like H&H to have the proper work.

Have a nice day.

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