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Hornady 174gr BTHP for hunting?

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Rolltide386 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rolltide386 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 5:34am
The only available hunting rounds I have in this area are the winchester 180gr. soft point. I have to drive about 2 hours to the next shop that has them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 6:42pm
They'll work fine if you can get some. (180's)

Dairy Farmer, 

In N. America, we have to use soft point or hollow point ammo, as you are probably aware, to comply with the law.
Shot placement is academic,  as in, wherever we shoot anything, it still has to be the aforementioned ammo.
I know in your neck of the woods, a good knock-down shot can be accomplished with a solid.
Here too maybe if it was allowed!
A  soft point will normally knock the props out quicker here, with say a lung shot, than if a solid was used, and I think this is the point of the poster you were replying to.

 I'd  also say (as a meat hunter!) that a lung shot with a soft point doesn't damage too much meat, Unless you shoot something through the shoulder into the lungs!  
Here, many do not approve of head shots, for the reason that a jaw may be broken with a badly placed shot, whereas a rib -cage shot allows a little more leeway on something in top gear.

Mind, I hunted for about 9 or 10 years with a flintlock rifle when we moved  here,  so had to be fairly careful placing shots.  
Since then, I went "modern" and use a Snider-Enfield, Martini Henry or Even a Lee Enfield!!

All the best,
Richard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DairyFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 6:52pm
I personally do not approve of using hollow points for anything other than varmint, unless it is a mono bullet like a Barnes X type.
 
Are you guys not allowed to use solids on your "dangerous" game like bear?
 
I have seen my share of shot off jaws. This is due to the hunter taking a shot that he/she is not competent in taking and the blame must be put squarely on the guide/PH. I would never allow a hunter to take a head shot unless I know that they can do it. Even I don't take them 99% of the time. The other 1% are frontal head shots or behind the ear shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rolltide386 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Pukka Bundook Pukka Bundook wrote:

They'll work fine if you can get some. (180's)

Dairy Farmer, 

In N. America, we have to use soft point or hollow point ammo, as you are probably aware, to comply with the law.
Shot placement is academic,  as in, wherever we shoot anything, it still has to be the aforementioned ammo.
I know in your neck of the woods, a good knock-down shot can be accomplished with a solid.
Here too maybe if it was allowed!
A  soft point will normally knock the props out quicker here, with say a lung shot, than if a solid was used, and I think this is the point of the poster you were replying to.

 I'd  also say (as a meat hunter!) that a lung shot with a soft point doesn't damage too much meat, Unless you shoot something through the shoulder into the lungs!  
Here, many do not approve of head shots, for the reason that a jaw may be broken with a badly placed shot, whereas a rib -cage shot allows a little more leeway on something in top gear.

Mind, I hunted for about 9 or 10 years with a flintlock rifle when we moved  here,  so had to be fairly careful placing shots.  
Since then, I went "modern" and use a Snider-Enfield, Martini Henry or Even a Lee Enfield!!

All the best,
Richard.
I always go for the double lung shot. I don't try to get fancy with it. If you blow out both lungs its night night.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rolltide386 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by DairyFarmer DairyFarmer wrote:


I personally do not approve of using hollow points for anything other than varmint, unless it is a mono bullet like a Barnes X type.
 
Are you guys not allowed to use solids on your "dangerous" game like bear?
 
I have seen my share of shot off jaws. This is due to the hunter taking a shot that he/she is not competent in taking and the blame must be put squarely on the guide/PH. I would never allow a hunter to take a head shot unless I know that they can do it. Even I don't take them 99% of the time. The other 1% are frontal head shots or behind the ear shots.
I picked up a box of the 180's. The longest shot I'd get around here is about 75 yards with most coming within 50 yards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DairyFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by Rolltide386 Rolltide386 wrote:

  I picked up a box of the 180's. The longest shot I'd get around here is about 75 yards with most coming within 50 yards.
 
There you go. The bullet is still going fast, so you can have something heavy. A lighter bullet is going to be going too fast. Slowing down a light bullet will negatively affect the energy it will have at target.
 
Rule of thumb, a slow heavy bullet placed right (other that a head shot) will give the best knock down, the best penetration (or lack of over penetration) and the best knock down effect at closer ranges. The further out you go the faster the bullet must travel to maintain its energy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2015 at 11:25pm
 Dairy Farmer!! 
Originally posted by Tony Tony wrote:

You need the controlled expansion of a soft point to ensure a clean kill.
That is a myth and I'll explain.


 

I agree with PUkka the game laws in the USA and UK stipulate soft nosed ammunition, we are NOT shooting thick skinned dangerous game requiring deep penetration. Try googling BDS or BASC over here in the UK, they STIPULATE soft point or hollow point ammunition and woe betide anyone using an unsuitable bullet if they are caught. English law requires a muzzle energy of 1700 foot pounds Scotland requires an minimum of 1750 foot pounds to be legal!
 Read the links I have posted
    http://basc.org.uk/cop/deer-stalking/
  http://www.countydeerstalking.co.uk/Deer-Stalking-Equipment-/-Reviews/expanding-ammunition-for-deer.html

 Then contact them and argue that they have it wrong and the law is an ass.
Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DairyFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 1:03am
My point was that controlled expansion is not the primary factor in ensuring a clean kill. In fact it has very little to do with the "cleanness" of the kill. The bullet's ability to penetrate sufficiently and deliver the required energy for a given situation is the primary factor. Hence we have laws and ethics governing the minimum calibre and bullet to be used on various types of game.
I agree that a soft nose or mono HP bullet should be used in almost all cases. Very seldom do you have the opportunity to change the round in the heat of the moment. Even where a head shot is taken a quality bullet will penetrate the skull regardless of its design (except varmint bullets). Almost all modern soft nose bullets are either bonded or interlocked in some manner to help retain as much of the bullet intact during its path into the animal.
 
If the law says that you must use at least xyz, the ethical hunter would already be exceeding these requirements.
 
Lets hope all our shots hit their marks and that we are confident in our equipment and ability before we take the decision. We are not politicians (I hope) after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 5:43am
What we're seeing here is different environments producing different rules & requirements.

Most US East Coast game hunting is "up close" Many shots being taken at under 25 yards. Partly this is because of the environment, I've been in a 3/4 million acre national park & never seen more than 350 yards in any direction, including from the tip of a cliff bluff, because of brush & tree cover. From many pictures I've seen of South Africa the terrain & vegetation is way more open. You may not shoot 1,00 yards but it seems you can sure see it!

The game is different too, even big animals like Moose or Elk are thin skinned. Bear is big (especially Kodiak & Grizzly), but they aren't particularly resilient in the way things like Hippo, Rhino & Elephant are.

Because of those vast differences the experience in one area probably doesn't translate well to the other.
PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 7:45am
Gentlemen,

This is a difficult subject, as we all envision something different when we think of our hunting environs!!

Here in Alberta, I have had white-tails so close I could here them breathing on occasion, and shots at 350 yards are not out of the question either.  (Maybe some of us shouldn't be shooting that far though!)
It's asking a lot of the same bullet to work just as well at both extremes.

Dairy Farmer,

As you say, Shot placement counts first.  :-)
 Here (and back home in the UK,) we are not allowed to use solids on any game animals.  
In a way, it would make sense for breaking down a big old bear, the same as it is used on  Cape Buffalo etc. (shoulder) (And! provided the shooter could hit it!)
Seeing as we are stuck with soft points, it is to our advantage to choose a bullet very carefully for things like large bears.  A slower heavier bullet will get where you want better than the faster lighter ones, but this you already know.
When it comes to deer-sized, more or less anything will work, just some mash more meat than others.  :-)
There is one advantage to heavier round-nosed bullets for the OP's Tennessee bush shooting, and that is that slower and more parralell-sided bullets do deflect less if they hit something on their way to the target, rather than 'zinging  off".   
Re. hollow points;
You are quite correct, most are to be avoided as light bullets for small 'varmint' type animals, but Norma made a fantastic round with a slight hollow point, and it was a wonderful performer on moose and the likes.  It was made in 6.5 x 55 and was dynamite on anything I used it on.
A moose takes a lot less stopping than an elk, BTW.  

All the best,
Richard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rolltide386 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 8:06am
Originally posted by Pukka Bundook Pukka Bundook wrote:

Gentlemen,

This is a difficult subject, as we all envision something different when we think of our hunting environs!!

Here in Alberta, I have had white-tails so close I could here them breathing on occasion, and shots at 350 yards are not out of the question either.  (Maybe some of us shouldn't be shooting that far though!)
It's asking a lot of the same bullet to work just as well at both extremes.

Dairy Farmer,

As you say, Shot placement counts first.  :-)
 Here (and back home in the UK,) we are not allowed to use solids on any game animals.  
In a way, it would make sense for breaking down a big old bear, the same as it is used on  Cape Buffalo etc. (shoulder) (And! provided the shooter could hit it!)
Seeing as we are stuck with soft points, it is to our advantage to choose a bullet very carefully for things like large bears.  A slower heavier bullet will get where you want better than the faster lighter ones, but this you already know.
When it comes to deer-sized, more or less anything will work, just some mash more meat than others.  :-)
There is one advantage to heavier round-nosed bullets for the OP's Tennessee bush shooting, and that is that slower and more parralell-sided bullets do deflect less if they hit something on their way to the target, rather than 'zinging  off".   
Re. hollow points;
You are quite correct, most are to be avoided as light bullets for small 'varmint' type animals, but Norma made a fantastic round with a slight hollow point, and it was a wonderful performer on moose and the likes.  It was made in 6.5 x 55 and was dynamite on anything I used it on.
A moose takes a lot less stopping than an elk, BTW.  

All the best,
Richard.
I agree. I took on a challenge last year and killed two bucks with my AR chambered in 5.56. I was using 64 grain Federal Fusion rounds. I really wish they made these rounds in .303 cause thet performed great in my AR. One shot while facing straight at me at around 30 yards hit the upper part of the heart and he dropped straight down. The second I shot leading away from me at around 60 yards , shot about 8inches behind the shoulder, it enter and blew out both lungs. He ran about 20yards and dropped dead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 11:45am
I have seen Sika stags hit in the boiler room (heart lung shot) drop then get up and run for several hundred yards the bullet placement was spot on taking out the heart and lungs as we discovered after gralloching it. The shooter had done everything he was told to do but  Sika seem to run on pure adrenalin. Head shots are a definate NO NO over here and beginners are educated to placing the bullet just behind the shoulder, I will use the neck shot if I'm certain I'll get correct bullet placement if not it's the heart lung shot!! Shooting on forestry land is a nightmare as Shamu says, dense cover low branches and low light all add to the problems and a dog is esential 1 for winding the animal and 2 for tracking if it runs any distance. With a 150 grain bullet generating 2088ft pounds muzzle energy it is still possible for Sika stags to run 2-300 yards before they drop and it's a nightmare to find them if they get into the thick woodland. CONTROLLED expantion takes out the heart and lungs and in many cases the bullet leaves a large exit wound. Solids would just drive through leaving a hole with little internal damage and a badly wounded animal which may run lay up and die a lingering death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flanker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 11:59am
Hear, hear!
Life is full of possibilities, 50% of them are likely to good....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 12:44pm
Shot placement is absolutely vital. But bullet performance has to be of a corresponding suitability.
I've killed exactly 2 deer, one in Surrey & one in PA.

I've killed dozens of small critters though, water rats, rabbits & so on with air rifles or a .22 RF. If you don't put the bullet in the right place it wont work no matter how good it is. I shot a coypu 4 times with hollowpoint .22s. The first he seemed to ignore, the second he spun round 180 degrees, the third he was biting at his side & the 4th dropped him. All of them were recovered & expanded perfectly stopping just under the offside skin.

As for deer the one in surrey (siki) had perfect placement & dropped like a bridge fell on him. I didn't even use a bullet, but a steel shod 9 1/2 EEE "John Tickle" Trials motorcycle boot from a 3rd floor window.Shocked

The one in PA (white tail) had some odd death wish! He stood broadside on at 15 yards & barked at me! Even with the scope backed down to 3X al I could see was fur. I opened the other eye & fired. He stood there glaring at me while my hunting buddy had a myocardial infarction as he thought I'd missed.Star

I hadn't, the bullet had broken a rib, transited the thoracic cavity, taken the top off of one lung, torn a huge hole in the other & clipped the heart before exiting from a hole I could put 4 fingers in.

It took several seconds for him to realize he was actually dead & fall over.
PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 1:08pm
The deer in my den is a classic story of the power of the .303.
This is a full rack buck. It was snowing heavily. I was hunkered down just below the ridge - keeping out of the weather. I had the "feeling" & looked up o'er the top..there he was - head down into the snow heading toward me. Drop down - safety off - chamber & pop back up. He was approx. 45 yds from me. He spread his front legs on sighting me..I fired. Hit just below his chin, thru the neck & straight up thru his spine. It actually picked him up & rearward summersaulted him.The red spray throughout the area was something to see. He got his front up & made for the road on my right - dragging his back half.When he got to the logging road I put another into him. The point is..I hit him with a 150 grn bullet, & the hole thru his spine / back was as big as my fist.
This bad boy was a 200 lb whitetail. I've had two deer that have been thrown about with a 150 grn bullet. When a 200 lb. animal can be flipped into a backward summersault like that..its a testament to the hitting power - in my opine.
Just sayin..,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2015 at 1:13pm
...Oh - forgot to mention..When Rhino was here last time - he slept in that den with my deer mount. Suffice to say..he was looking at it in a very strange way..had to remove it for the duration of his stay.(No tellin what would've happened to it!) ...him & his "Rhino"
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