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It has a pointy end...

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Goosic View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 11 2017 at 5:00pm
I have a No4 MkI bayonet. Found it at a pawn shop for ten bucks. I have been informed that this particular bayonet is as rare as Teddy Bear poo.
I have two MkII bayonets,one from Savage and three No9 Mk1 bayonets. I was under the assumption that the blade bayonets were the sought after ones. Why is this Mk1 considered rare?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2017 at 7:57pm
Very hard to make and very time consuming to make.

Let's not even talk about the cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 6:20am
Wasn't there some deal banning cruciform bayonets?
I know they were a low volume product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 1:24pm
From what I understand the cruciform bayonets were deemed to be a violation of the Geneve Accords as the wounds produced were deemed inhumane to modern warfare. It's along those lines. I don't imagine getting stabbed with basically a giant pole barn nail is any better, but I guess there are limits to how death is dealt out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:02pm
They were only made by the Singer company between the late 1941 and early 1942; before the cost cutting did away with the machining for the cruciform. They made around 70,000 of them I believe; which is not that many when you consider a total of around 5,000,000 spike bayonets in total.
For ten bucks it's a steal! they sell for over 200 pounds in the UK; compared to 20 pounds for an ordinary MkII.
It has all the correct markings:
 G "crown" R
No4Mk1
SM.

The No4 Mk1 is the version of the bayonet; (even though it fits the No4Mk1 rifle)
G R is George Rex (king George)
SM is Singer Manufacturing.
It has probably got either 41 or 42 stamped on the release button. Have a look!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:42pm
The Geneva convention of 1864 was to do with the treatment of prisoners of war, partially because the Brits had a big habit of not taking prisoners.

Perhaps you were thinking of the Hague convention of 1907 that banned the use of certain weapons?

This cruciform bayonet was introduced long after the regulation was in place. As I understand the main driving force behind moving away from a cruciform bayonet was cost and simplified manufacture as production needed to ramp up quickly for WWII. 

The 1931 spec for the bayonet was the ability to penetrate a German wool overcoat. For that, a plain spike works just as well as the cruciform and better than a blade.

If I am not mistaken, the cruciform spike appeared with the No.1 Mk.VI, which in effect was the prototype for the No.4 rifle.  The No.4 Mk.I stamping on the socket and scabbard chape refer to the Mark of the  bayonet, not the rifle. Mk.I was cruciform, Mk.II was a plain spike.

So although not made in the huge quantities like that of the Mk.II, cruciform spike bayonets are not that rare. They are certainly getting harder to find. Consequently the nicer ones sell at a premium. They are worth enough money that they are worth faking and fakes are out there.

A fake cruciform is just a plain spike modified with four cuts on a milling machine. But the markings are wrong and the tip shape is different. Not hard to spot if you have seen an original.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:47pm
If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:25pm
ZED.
It must have been repaired. The button has the Savage Square S on it. All in all,it is an original though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:47pm
thats a great example , its in much nicer condition than most ive seen , the one i own , and even some shown in reference books as examples , 

these went thru a number of configurations as no1 mkIIs , then Model A & B in the 20s and early 30s made at ROF Enfield  trials no2 mkI in 31 , both the rifle and bayonet became no4 mkI in spring of 31 , 
in 33 Enfield made trials no4 mkI so there are some out there marked with the entwined ED , the war inspired added mfgrg at numerous locations and singer was already making parts was awarded the only commercial contract for mkI spikes in 41 , the one piece mkI was declared 'obsolete' the same time the contract was awarded , singer was involved in early mkII development and production as well , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2017 at 10:08pm
I'm never getting rid of this bayonet but, does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2017 at 3:01am
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.
 
Are you sure it wasn't a German in a sheep's overcoat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2017 at 7:17am
Originally posted by Stanforth Stanforth wrote:

Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.

 
Are you sure it wasn't a German in a sheep's overcoat?


Maybe, if Hoadie was doing the testing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2017 at 4:45pm
"does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?"

to a collector - yes , there is no getting around that if true and it probably would affect value in cash as well to those that need the perfect ones , in my mind not so much as its a righteous example of a singer made mkI and fine for my accumulation and a lot of others , i guess i would want to be certain before i lept to a conclusion , is the S in a square or something ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2017 at 5:07pm
Yes it is a square S inside a square.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2017 at 4:25am
It's easy enough to swap the release button; but you may have a problem finding one with the 41 or 42 stamp. Although no mark would probably be better than the Savage "S".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2017 at 4:53am
I have a blade bayonet with no markings on the button that I'd have no issues with doing a swap out on. How do you remove the button please. I've been wondering how to do this anyways.
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