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    Posted: August 10 2015 at 10:50pm
After a few years (in my younger days) of perusing this round and that round and all these articles surrounding which round or gun for which game the light came on for me;
I got into the business of policing and then instructing. I then found that only 3 things stop the human animal with gunfire with 100% no fail; the tissue destroyed by the projectile, loss of blood pressure via the circulatory system and disruption of the CNS. There are 2 other things which MAY stop him; the  temporary cavity which MAY cause some permanent damage to organs close to the path of the projectile and the mental reaction to being shot.  
 
With that in mind I can safely say that all the numbers that bullet and ammo manufacturers through around are nice and interesting to converse about but when selecting ammo for the purpose of killing anything there are only a couple of things that are relevant;
 
Shot Placement - Is the round accurate in you rifle at the ranges you encounter.
 
Penetration - Does it go in deep enough to reach the vital organs OR disrupt the CNS OR make an exit wound to increase the loss of blood pressure rapidly enough to produce the quickest most humane kill possible via that route of incapacitation.
 
Terminal Ballistics - Lastly does it create a large enough path of permanent tissue damage (hopefully of one of the 3 things described above), remember only direct projectile contact can RELIABLY destroy tissue and organs. 
 
The psychological impact of being shot hasn't been studied in animals but I' sure PETA is on that already...
 
IMHO the most important of these three is always going to be shot placement.
 
I'm not trolling but I suppose it may seem that way. I just happened to pick up a hunting magazine today at work and was reminded how much BS those writers throw at readers in the name of unpaid (in honest terms) compensation by ammo and bullet makers. It seems they come up with all sorts of irrelevant numbers to throw at folks instead of just those I mentioned above. All the talk of energy expended and shock etc etc etc would lead a reader to believe that a hunter could throw the ammo box at a rhino and it'll drop dead.
 
In any event there it is; once I just applied those 3 standards to what I shoot I never had to have the creeping thought that my ammo may not be all it could be. Obviously a shooter / hunter can determine accuracy on his or her own, finding unbiased information on the other subjects is another matter. I know that when selecting duty ammo for handguns, AR15's and sniper (excuse me Police Counter Sniper) use we would get bombarded with "facts" from ammo makers (FYI a lot of stuff that is stamped tactical has a twin under another name that's always a bunch cheaper). Strangely enough when compared to FBI Ballistics Performance Testing the "facts" were often a different.
 
I'm not writing this to folks who know what to shoot, I'm sure there are folks as ignorant about the ammo "trade" and ammo selection as I'am about the Lee-Enfield which is why I'm on this site. I just wanted to put this out there hoping it may help someone's head from spinning then exploding trying to decipher a bunch of blather.
 
If I get knocked down 6 times I will get up 7 times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DairyFarmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 5:03am
A well placed .22 round will do more damage than a miss from a 135mm gun. Following that, if you know the capability of yourself and the bullet, there is no need to be worried about all the rest. Shoot to your ability and don't expect the rifle or bullet to do more than it was designed for. If you are a scrawny 60kg guy, you are not going to start a fist fight with a 120kg biker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 9:34am
I agree totally.
Those who put down the old .303 haven't been shot with one, or seen anything that has been. Armchair Generals Vs Monday Morning Quarterbacks is a popular competition, but experience in the field frequently differs from the paper trails calculations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gwpercle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 9:43am
When I was a youngster,  following my Grand Paw around when he went hunting,   I questioned his use of a 22 LR to hunt feral hogs with,   My daddy and uncles all used "big " guns.
He said " boy,  I'm going to tell you something they haven't learned yet.   It's not WHAT  you shoot an animal with,  but WHERE you shoot them that matters."
I watch him every year , with one shot, kill a hog and all manner of small game with that single shot 22 rifle.   Then he taught me how to shoot,   a single round was given and you better not miss.
I learned to kill hogs all you had to do was  angle the shot through the ear hole into the brain.

Times sure have changed...now its 15 rounds all fired as fast as the trigger can be pulled,
spray and pray..  Have seen dads showing their kids this method of shooting far too many times at the local range....it's sad.
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 10:10am
My Father-in-law used a 303 for deer hunting till he truned 80. Now he uses a 25-35 leaver gun now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 1:57pm
People think I'm kidding when I tell them I've been hog hunting with a .22.

Its the old adage:
"would you rather be just missed with a .44 magnum or shot between the eyes with a .22RF"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lowspeed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 6:15pm
I too was taught t hunt squirrels with a 22 Rem Sportsmaster and in turn taught my son to do the same. With that in mind it's equally as satisfying to dump 28 rounds of 5.56 into multiple targets as fast as I can accurately do so but that's another skill that only comes from good fundamentals, they're just sped up a little bit. This business of putting a bunch of rounds down range in hopes that one finds its mark is not only wasteful and ignorant it's negligent in the woods as well as on the street and in home defense but it seems to be the order of the day for lots of folks; sad. 
 
Almost as bad is the junk that passes for gun literature these days with people talking about "knockdown power" etc etc; there simply is not such thing among sporting arms and defensive type arms except for destruction of the CNS yet those who write these days throw the term around like baseball writers speak of a perfect game. Problem is only a perfect game exists. There used to be really talented writers in that genre, not so much anymore. In any event I figured someone may get some value out of hearing, perhaps for the first time, the only things that cause beings to cease being. Hopefully people will realize that all of the latest gear, gadgets and latest greatest ammo is 99% hype designed to separate the insecure or unknowing from their money so they can be tacticool. While with the exception of the vast improvement in optics over the past 10 or 15 years there really isn't anything earth shattering in terms of making bullets go where you want them to go. I suppose if folks were to look at my picture I posted they may think me a hypocrite but in reality the only thing on my rifle is an EOTech, magnifier and light. Those were purchased for work and the iron sights are still there and still work, in fact they're what I've used everytime I've shot the thing since I retired.
 
Wow, I think I emptied my brain with that one, sorry that was so rambling, just a bit tired of folks in the firearms media whoring themselves out to the ammo makers and gadget salesmen.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by DairyFarmer DairyFarmer wrote:


A well placed .22 round will do more damage than a miss from a 135mm gun. Following that, if you know the capability of yourself and the bullet, there is no need to be worried about all the rest. Shoot to your ability and don't expect the rifle or bullet to do more than it was designed for. If you are a scrawny 60kg guy, you are not going to start a fist fight with a 120kg biker.


Well, maybe...for "normal" folks. I gotta tell ya tho..I wasn't much more than 98 lbs. & a good number of times I mixed it up with some large lads. One time in Niagara Falls, there was a body builder competition in town...well, don't wanna bore ya, but don't under-estimate the tenacity of the "little" guy.
I'll re-tell the story fer anyone interested.. but it wasn't my only "dance" with the big boys
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2015 at 9:52pm
when the target and the bullet converge at a point where 1000 lbs of energy is generated. you still have a less than 50/50 chance of taking your target down. The convergence must  occur in the brain, the spine or some  other vital spot.
 
good luck taking down elephants or water bufflo with your 22 long rifle. You may win  an argument on  a forum here and there but out there in the tall grass........
 
as for your biker analogy... punch him as hard as you can three times  in the throat. what? Nobody ever seen the movie "Unleashed"
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