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Lee Enfield MLE MK1? - Found in Dad's Attic

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Jc5 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2011 at 3:38pm
OK, I understand. I will be patient, and I hope you get the issues sorted out. This forum is always a fun one, but although I've "lurked" here as an observer for several years, I always end up posting on the other Lee Enfield forums. The easier it is to post, the more traffic you will get. Anyway, I completely understand the responsibilities you must assume when administrating a forum, and I support you 100%.

...

Now if we can get a good look at the markings under the handguard of mrdribble's rifle, maybe we can narrow down the date.

Thanks to A Square 10 for reminding us that the bolt cover is missing on this rifle. Too bad, but not a "deal breaker" (though I wonder what happened to it?), because replacements are not hard to find. Of course, finding a commercial one will be darn near impossible, but an ex-military one shouldn't be too hard, usually from $30 to $50, and it adds to the aesthetic appeal of the rifle. I would try to find one made by BSA, and call it good enough. (A military BSA bolt cover will be marked with a "crown over B" view mark---see Skennerton for details). 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 2:40am
Sorry for the delay in providing additional pictures.  The only markings under the handguard (on either side) are shown in these photos:
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 7:09am
Weird....

Three questions:

1) Are you certain there's not any mark on the left-hand side? Not even a faded one?

2) What about the top-rear flat part of the action where the bolt slides in? Is anything stamped there? See attached photo for the location I mean.

3) Anything marked on the bolt handle?

With those questions answered I will check your rifle against the ones in my notes and see if we can get a more precise date.

Thanks! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 10:37am
I don't see anything on the left side of the flat area behind/under the bolt.  Here are the photos though...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
To be fair too the photos I sent to Ian Skennerton were rudamentary in comparison to these detail shots.  Looks like a MLE Mk1 though and he'd be the one to say so (even with poor photos) :)
 
Thanks again for the additional help on this... would love to know more about this rifle.
Regards,
Matt-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 11:23am
Additional photos... finally breaking out the better camera :)  This one's a scanning electron microscope in comparison to the camera phone (which was doing pretty good for a camera phone).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 11:55am
Close ups of left side of receiver:
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by mrdibbles mrdibbles wrote:

 
To be fair too the photos I sent to Ian Skennerton were rudamentary in comparison to these detail shots.  Looks like a MLE Mk1 though and he'd be the one to say so (even with poor photos) :)


As we have said several times already, it is not an MLE MkI....First, because it is a commercial model....only the government models have model designations like that. There is no model designation stamped anywhere on your rifle---if it were property of the British Government it would have the sovereign's cipher, a date, and the model designation.  The other reason it is not an MLE MkI is because the MLE MkI had a fore-end channel and a nose-cap hole for a clearing rod---yours does not, so it is based on the MLE MkI* pattern (pronounced MLE "Mark One Star"). The MLE MkI* (with the star) replaced the MLE MKI in service in 1899. The difference was that they eliminated the clearing rod and all provision for it. BSA eliminated the clearing rod on their commercial rifles shortly after the military did.

I am checking your rifle against the database of commercial rifles for which I have certain dates. It's not all computerized so this means I have to manually look stuff up and compare. Give me just a bit of time and I'll post what I find.

Thanks again for posting those pics. The level of detail is very good! Every bit of info I can gather on these commercial rifles is very helpful to my project, so again, thanks very much and I hope I can offer something useful on it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 2:01pm
Also, is there anything stamped on the buttplate tang?


Do you plan to remove the fore-end for cleaning, as LE Owner recommended in his post above? If you do, a pic of any markings under the barrel would be really helpful.

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2011 at 9:36pm
Thanks for clarifying the (based on the) MLE MkI* designation piece.  I totally get it now.  At present I don't have plans to remove the stock but that's more due to the thousand other things I have going on that are consuming my free time.  I know I need to get to that to properly clean the weapon but in the meantime I've preserved it as best I can.  Please let me know if you discover an additional details on the date or anything else.
 
BTW... my Dad relayed some more detail about this rifle.  He said be bought it off an officer in the Paraguayan Army (cerca 1972).  He was told that after WWI Argentina procured a large number of these style weapons and had the barrels rebored to a caliber that the Argentine military had stndardized on.  At the time he was told by the Paraguyan Army officer that this was likely how this rifle made it's way into Paraguay (through Argentina).  Of course this is all second hand information, it can't be treated as the gospel, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 12:28am
Yes, that is interesting! Thanks for sharing the story. Even second hand myths can be useful and provide some grain of truth. Tom Gresham said once that every gun owner should take a few minutes to sit down and write the story of each gun: where you got it, what you did with it, anything you changed, fixed or replaced...and then you pass along this written paper with the gun when you sell it or give it to your kids. I like this suggestion because guns are more than just hunks of metal and wood...they are stories. One hundred years ago, did the BSA workers who assembled this rifle imagine that we would be discussing it, trying to figure it out and where it's been? Well, 50 or 100 years from now, that paper you wrote on the gun will be valuable to the person who owns it. Your story about your dad in Paraguay already makes this rifle more interesting than an anonymous one picked up at a gun show. Know what I mean?

Having said that, collectors know that you never should buy the story, only the gun! But the story adds to the fun.

Regarding the Argentina to Paraguay story, the reboring doesn't sound like it would be worth the cost, but anything's possible.

Does your rifle appear to rebored? 
Does it have 5 or 7 grooves?
Is there anything stamped on the buttplate tang?

Right now, all  I can offer is that it left the BSA factory between 1905 and 1914 (not a bad era to be born if you are a Lee Enfield! They made great rifles in those years. Later economizing had not yet been implemented). As I double check it against others I have logged and so forth, I hope to get that date a bit more precise.

The V/13 stamp is puzzling. My first thought is "Volunteer" followed by some arbitrary unit designation.I can't say that I've never seen it before, but I know it is not common. If I had seen it several times on a commercial rifle I would remember it. Most inspection and view marks follow a different format.

It could be: 1) a private factory inspection mark. ("V" stands for "view"). This is unlikely but possible.
2) an identification of a volunteer unit, of what country we don't know. It doesn't match anything in "The Broad Arrow." Most volunteer marks follow a different format. Maybe there's something to that story about service in the Argentine military...! Still, if it were served out to some military or paramilitary unit (let's suppose they were running short of Mausers), I would think it would be marked differently, or in more places, like the butt stock. 

Anyone have ideas on this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 12:45am

I wonder if my Dad remembers the story wrong and the V = Venezuela and the 13 = 1913?  Just a thought.  I'll check the butt plate tang when I get home but I don't think anythings there.  Is there a good set of instructions out there on how to remove the wood?  Maybe i'll do it this weekend if I can be made comfortable with the process.  I am mechanical not not a gunsmith.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdibbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 6:13am
BTW... looks like 5 grooves and there are no markings on the butt plate tang.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2011 at 7:38pm

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.

So this rifle is from a military contract rather than a civilian purchase , at least from the company.
Military weapons could be bought from stores run for the purpose, but I think you had to be a serving or reserve military personel to buy directly from those stores. IIRC these were called "Army-Navy" stores. The term Army-Navy Store was often used by military surplus outlets here in the U S A.
 
It was common for armies that used the Maxim or Vickers MG in .303 caliber to arm gun crews with .303 chambered rifles even if the standard infantry rifle was chambered for a different cartridge.
Post WW1 thousands of Vickers guns were sold off by the British, these were in .303 of course.
The Maxim and Browning MGs could be bought in just about any rifle caliber chambering, but the Vickers only came in .303.
Eastern European users of the surplus Vickers guns usually armed gun crews with P-14 rifles from the same source. A .303 version of the Mauser was developed for this purpose, but only a single prototype is known to exist. It used a floor plate and magazine box developed by Rigby for their sporting rifles that used rimmed or belted cartridges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jc5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2011 at 2:21am
Originally posted by LE Owner LE Owner wrote:

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.


With all due respect to the gentleman who wrote that (I respect him), that statement is not entirely correct. He's assuming that the first BSA commercial product was the War Office Miniature rifle (1905). But BSA made, marketed, and sold commercial versions of their contract arms decades before that. BSA's previous commercial work is the whole point of the project I've been working on the past few years. 

Without going into the whole story (which will be told when it's fully cooked, I promise), the easiest way to see that BSA sold commercial rifles before 1905 is to look at the many surviving examples of Lee Metford sporting rifles that have pre-1904 commercial proof marks on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Jc5 Jc5 wrote:

Originally posted by LE Owner LE Owner wrote:

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.


With all due respect to the gentleman who wrote that (I respect him), that statement is not entirely correct. He's assuming that the first BSA commercial product was the War Office Miniature rifle (1905). But BSA made, marketed, and sold commercial versions of their contract arms decades before that. BSA's previous commercial work is the whole point of the project I've been working on the past few years. 

Without going into the whole story (which will be told when it's fully cooked, I promise), the easiest way to see that BSA sold commercial rifles before 1905 is to look at the many surviving examples of Lee Metford sporting rifles that have pre-1904 commercial proof marks on them.
Could be a mistake on the part of whoever wrote up the page on the BSA site. I know that there were civilian owners of LE and Metford target rifles and sporting rifles in the 1890's but never learned much about how these got into civilian hands other than the connections to Volunteer Rifle companies and reserve officers and such.
I'd read of the Army Navy stores where British officers bought private purchase firearms. I'm wondering if BSA may have sold sporting rifles directly to a government sponsored outlet. The rifles would then still be government contract items though sold as commercial firearms would have been in the U S.
 
I'll be glad to see your finished work, I like to read about the goings on of the late 19th to early 20th century.
 
A good source of information is the records of debates in the Parlements of Canada and Great Britain. 
Google Books also has free downloads of a few journals of the 19th century British gun trade which are a goldmine of information on the Lee Enfield and .303 cartridge, also much information on proof testing by methods in use at the time.
 
PS
I've read (possibly in one of Stratton's works) that when Lee Enfield action bodies were being manufactured they always made more than the contract called for, placing those not used in finishing a rifle into storage where they could be drawn as spares. At the time British practice did not recognise the receiver as being the heart of the rifles identity, that changed with new laws in the 1920's.
Finished action bodies might not be assembled as rifles till decades after manufacture. Whether these spares were proofed in some way before being set aside as spares I couldn't say. The NOS BSA replacement bolt body I obtained has a proof mark though never before having been part of a finished rifle. 
 
Heres a bit of info on the Army-Navy stores.
Quote

The store began as a co-operative society, The Army & Navy Co-operative Society, formed in 1871 by a group of army and navy officers. The intention was to supply 'articles of domestic consumption and general use to its members at the lowest remunerative rates'. The store opened on its present site on 15 February 1872 for the sale of groceries and expanded to include goods as diverse as drapery, drugs, fancy goods and guns. The store was completely rebuilt and opened in 1977[1], designed by London architects Elsom Pack & Roberts[2].

Based on the model of other middle-class co-operatives, such as Civil Service Supply Association (Strand, London, 1864), the society issued tickets to its members in exchange for annual subscription. Membership of 'The Stores' as it became known was open only to those in the higher ranks of the armed forces and the widows of officers as well as the representatives of regimental messes and canteens. In later years membership was expanded to a wider audience and tickets were issued free of charge after 1922. The benefits of membership included a dividend from the profits of the business and the free delivery of goods

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2011 at 2:29am
A bit off topic, but co-ops were & still are popular in the UK for many things. Some were for specialized groups, but some were for everyone.
I remember going to the local Co-Op (never known as anything else) in Bristol with my mother. As you say there were tickets, bonus drawings & pay outs & other little "perks" like double green shield stamps as well.

Apparently they are still going strong from this article:Big smile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_co-operative_movement

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