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MKIII* serial numbers

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Drumbobs View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 30 2018 at 2:05am
Hi all, new to the forum, so a big he!!O!

New to purchasing WW1 firearms, as you will probably tell with this..So your expertise would be much appreciated. Recently purchased MKIII*. Please see image. Looks the part, but it only has matching serial numbers on receiver and rear sight (2242). Rear of bolt (1249) bayonet boss (H6811) all different. Some of the upper woodwork seems to have been replaced. A mongrel? Plenty of other marks, the normal ones, manufacturers etc but also others. Can post other pics if need be..If anyone would be kind enough to offer any further info and insight that would be appreciated..

Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2018 at 7:00pm
all of the markings we need to see are not in the photos but you described it well , i will venture out and say its been refitted after service , but i have no idea where or when , 

that said it looks a nice WWI rifle - you need to know these were made in WWII by BSA as well , FWTW 

the sold out of service opposing broad arrows indicate it passed to civilian life , we cannot say what happens to them after that as folks change things out to suit their needs , it was and is a great SMLE in my mind , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2018 at 1:19am
Much thanks to you 'A square 10', that's great..Are there any other specific marks I should be looking out for? 
Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 31 2018 at 6:55pm
the right wrist - in close up , then the left if its marked , rear of the bolt handle , rear of the ladder sight , bottom of the mag and front of the bayonet boss to start , we can give you a lot more from those , 
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I hope these may help...

Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 01 2018 at 6:58pm
ok , mkIII* that much i see , rest i cannot make out in the photos - i cannot expand them , looks like the numbers are there - do they match ? are any crossed out ? is there any indication they were altered ? 

other end of the magazine box would be nice as well , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 12:47am
Right, sorry..the wrist has MkIII* yes, it has GR crest, Enfield, date 1918 and the SHLE. Numbers on receiver and rear sight are the same, 2242. The Bolt looks like it had 2242 on it, but then stamped over to make 81249, the 8 looks like its been added and the original 2's stamped over with a 1 and a 9, not sure though. There is nothing on the bottom of the mag, just on the side and internal as shown. Nose has H 6811 stamped. 
Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 5:42am
another mark....looks like an arrow and F.R
mark..
Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 9:17am
It looks like
(CROWN)
G.R
ENGLAND, err ENFIELDEmbarrassed
1918
ShtLE
III*


(which strike me a odd because "ENGLAND" is a pre 1968 US import stamp?)  Might it be a BSA based on the ShtLE rather than SMLE stamps?
Is there a marking in the area indicate by the white arrow? can you get a pic from a similar angle on yours?

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 10:17am
Seeing as the bolt appears to be a mis-match to the receiver. It would be worth checking the fit of the bolt lug's against the receiver locking area. You need contact on both lugs for accuracy and safety. Bolts and receivers were matched then numbered; hence the need to check if it's not the original.
Also check the headspace while you're about it. (I take it this is a live rifle and not a deactivated one)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 11:15am
The worn marking says ENFIELD, which would be the manufacturer Shamu, not ENGLAND.

  

EU GB, is that marking to denote new Euro deactivation standards?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 02 2018 at 1:48pm
OK.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2018 at 2:22am
there are the letters E F in this place..
Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2018 at 2:26am
yes its Enfield..
Cheers, Paul...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2018 at 8:59am
Need more pics to read the story on this one.

If you look at the left hand side of the receiver ring, there is a double broad arrow, kind of a star like symbol just to the right of EU GB. This is a 'Sold Out of Service'  (SOS) mark from when it was released from Government inventory. 
The broad arrow was British Govt acceptance marking from when it was taken into stores. It use goes back to 1855 with the formation of the War Department. The broad arrow would be stamped on anything and everything (including prison convicts' uniforms) as an ownership mark.
Adding a second arrow tip to tip had the effect of officially cancelling the property mark.

The use and meaning of the double broad arrow mark changed over time, I have a few theories coming together about its use and meaning.

But in this case you will note that there is an 'S' marked above the double broad arrow. This is part of the same marking and denotes that the rifle was inspected by a govt armourer and certified to be in Serviceable condition (ie shootable) when released.
Typically this was done when it was given as a live firearm to a Cadet Corps who intended to use them for range use. I would be checking for cadet unit markings on the butt stock..

Can we see pics of the barrel flat and both sides of the reinforce under the hand guard at the breech, please?

What I can read so far is that this 1918 service rifle did its tour of duty possibly in two world wars. At sometime it was donated to a Cadet Corps for range use.
Then after time with the cadets it was sold off as surplus through the British Gun trade and was reproofed at the Birmingham Proof House. Clearer pics and I will be able to tell you in exactly what year.
Then after being a civilian owned rifle, it was deactivated to become a display piece and ended up on the collector market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drumbobs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2018 at 1:32am
Thank you englishman_ca, really helpful and interesting.....! Most of the photos of marks etc. I have, are within is thread above, I attach a few more, hope these help!? 






Cheers, Paul...
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