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M.O.A. w/bayonet

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Tony View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 2:50am
  And now a comment from a "smart arse" who does know what he's talking about

Whats with all the minute of angle mantra?? The rifles were set up to cope with a bayonet on the end not as a benchrest toy. As for barrel harmonics in the dark days of WW1 and WW2 when the Hun was knocking on the door equipment wasn't available to measure barrel harmonics accurately they were designed as a combat rifle and as such were very accurate. The rifle is only as accurate as the floppy pink bit behind the stock and quite frankly if anybody came on the range with a fixed bayonet when I'm RO I'd boot them off as a safety hazard.
  The forum "Rottie"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:20am
Tell 'em what ya REALLY think,Tony!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:58am
 I sure will Hoadie. It was you who christened me the forum Rottie and I'll live up to your expectations!!Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 5:37am
as a CRO at our facility i too would tell my ROs to evict someone with fixed bayo "except" in the case of our anual vintage military rifle shoot , its considered a requirement for that section of the course of fire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 5:41am

I always get a kick out of threads that go like this.

 

A while back I had a Trilux SUIT sight, mounted on an FN-FAL. It’s an odd scope to say the least. The front lens is offset ½" to the left of center & the eyepiece centered at the rear. This was done to keep length minimized & not have the gas block, front sight & its “ears” in the field of view of the sight.

 

You should see some of the incredibly convoluted methods dreamt up to zero or sight in this sight because of the ½” horizontal offset.

 

What was the real answer? Simple, have the MPOI strike ½" left of the POA, that’s it!

Why? Well you see the spec for the FN-FAL calls for a 10 round group to have a 3-½” vertical by 2 ¾” horizontal group at 100yds. All those calculating convergence, like a WW@ fighter’s guns & using Pythagoras theorem were just beating themselves up because by 50yds the ½” was gone into shot dispersion anyway!

 

Same with the Lee Enfield, it’s a battle rifle, designed to not have “Minute of Angle” target rifle performance, but “minute of adversary” battlefield accuracy out to 600yds 70% of the time.

 

Want MOA? get a custom Remington 700 with a Shilen bull barrel & load up Sierra target loads!

 

 

Can live with 3” groups’ (which used to qualify qualify as “Marksman” in the Brit forces) all you need is a good well-maintained Battle rifle like the FAL or No4 Mk2.

This is actually 1/2 "minute of adversary" because that's a 200 yd, reducedd for 100 yd shilouette Hug
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 25-5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 7:35am
For all my fellow RO's.  The spike bayonet looks like a nasty piece of work. I have no intention of sticking anybody in the "arse".  I am at the 200yd range of my club all by myself for a few hours of a weekday AM.  Bye the bye, I would not take a loaded rifle with bayonet down range to stick the target and shoot a good group as suggested. LOL
For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 7:46am
Sham;

The BREN has an offset sight.Its UNBELIEVABLY accurate!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 9:20am
I as an RO will allow someone to fix a bayonet on the firing line if the range is not crowded and they ask me first.   You have gotten me currious so I may have to give it a try myself sometime when the range isn't crowded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 1:48pm
From "A Basic Manual of Military Small Arms", by W H B Smith, page 21.
 
"In the production model of the rifle now being issued (No.4 MkI*), there are two apeture sights set at right angles to each other. One is set for 300 yards with bayonet fixed. When the bayonet is removed this sight is accurate to 400 yards. The second sight is set for 600 yards without bayonet.
Customary battle practice is to have bayonet fixed when the enemy is in range of 300 yards or less."
 
The same information may be found in Reynolds' "the Lee Enfield Rifle".
Reynolds also states that rifles were sighted in at the factory without the bayonet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 2:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 3:31pm
 Oh dearie dearie me! Get your glasses on Shamu!!! You were supposed to shoot the target on the top left.LOL The main target is for bayonet practice!!!Big smile  As for the "spiked bayonet" it was 1 cheap to make and 2 ideal when attached to the handle of an entrenching tool to probe for mines the other saving grace was it didn't stick due to vacuum when shoved in the "minute of adversary".  Hoadies comment re Bren is very valid we lugged a lot of brens converted to 762 out to the Falklands owing to a shortage of machine guns and like the originals were very accurate and a lot lighter and faster to deploy than the GPMG when we ran into the Argies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by SW28fan SW28fan wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxQKF2gkMgo


Figures you'd use a "Northern" take on that.
No matter...Best scene/sound of bayonets I've EVER experienced was @ the 125th battle of G'Burg.We were doin Pickett's.We were behind the Conf. artillery(reverse slope)during the arty duel.Officers came gallopping over the hill as the canon fire slackened. Orders given-Sgt's screamed, "FIX    BAYONETS!".(This STILL gives me chills!)As ONE-more than 4,000 bayonets were pulled from the scabbards, & fixed in complete unison!!You could NEVER have rehearsed that!It was a VERY loud "swish...click,clack" It was so loud that 1 mile away, across the field, they heard it in the union line!!IT WAS AWESOME, to say the least!(Damn! I'm proud to have been part of that!)
..the confederate army was non-union!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2013 at 11:34pm
Oops I got the 300/400yd thing reversed.Embarrassed
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 25-5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 1:30am
Thanks guys. Lots of interesting info.  I am having a great time with this rifle.  I have done a lot of shooting but never thought to have a bayonet.
I have made a bunch of different .303 loads and can't wait to experiment.
Glad to see you all have a good humor and a bit of thick skin.
For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 5:33am
Tony is the one with the thick skin....he's part reptile! (& a small part Rottie)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 6:22am
I have pointy things that go on my rifles:
 
 
Just a representative example of major types.
The one on the Frenchie came with it. 
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