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A second No4 Mk2

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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4394
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 8:35am
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Topic: A second No4 Mk2
Posted By: DRC
Subject: A second No4 Mk2
Date Posted: February 04 2011 at 3:54am
I finally got my FAC back from the police after an 8 week delay and was able to pick up my second No4.
 
And finally the two girls together!
I've put twenty rounds down range and found that the new arrival is giving a grouping of 6" and shooting 18" right at 100 yards. I think I can work with that.


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea



Replies:
Posted By: ArcherSix
Date Posted: February 04 2011 at 11:48am
good find!
 
I'm sure you'll have fun sorting out her zero. Man, wish I could find one that pretty around here....


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: February 04 2011 at 12:53pm
Very nice indeed


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 04 2011 at 3:57pm
Thanks.  I bought her from EFD Rifles   http://www.efdrifles.com/ - http://www.efdrifles.com/ excellent service and a lot of practical knowledge.
 
I won't be following a friend's advice about zeroing her - 'Bash it over to the right a bit with a hammer' !!!Shocked
 
Can anyone help with the stamped numbers to the right of the serial number?


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 04 2011 at 10:12pm
I'm not sure if I'm seeing the right numbers here but............Confused
A16285 is the serial #
F 57 FTR means a  "Factory Through Repair" (complete rebuild) done by Fazackerly, near Birmingham, in 1957.
At least that's the numbers I'm seeing, the "7" is a bit fuzzy but would be the last digit in the rebuild year.





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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 05 2011 at 1:08am
You are right Shamu it is a 7, I was trying out a new camera as well, at least the rifle worked! Not too happy about the camera.
 
It's the number just to the right of the screw head that has me confused.


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 05 2011 at 4:48am
The "418014"?
I'm guessing a renumber from the FTR. Rifles upgraded were frequently re-numbered, but oddly the original number was rarely, if ever removed.Beer


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 05 2011 at 4:50pm
Mystery solved! Thanks for that Shamu

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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 05 2011 at 10:04pm
Which bring up the question............
(drum roll please)
Which is the serial number?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 06 2011 at 2:53am
On my certificate its recorded as A16285.  Giving the authorities two serial numbers would only confuse them.

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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: February 06 2011 at 4:35am
Looks like another job well done


Posted By: kevino
Date Posted: February 06 2011 at 9:44pm
very nice looking rifleSmile


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 12:48am
Originally posted by DRC DRC wrote:

On my certificate its recorded as A16285.  Giving the authorities two serial numbers would only confuse them.

Yep, I know what you mean.Cry

Here in Sunny MD we are required to do a check for purchases (transfers) of "regulated firearms" This is a list of anything the state of MD thinks might be "non-sporting" or something else no-one can figure out. There is a list & a list of things that can be put on the existing list, except when they want to put something on the list that isn't covered by what is listed as being needed to be put on the listConfusedStar

The there is the "instant background check" ( which I always get put on hold for) that isn't instant, but I guess I shouldn't be complaining as the hold is 3 days max, followed by a 10 day waiting period. Anyway they run a check on the item, legally a pistol, even if it's a rifle as long as it can be put on the list................blah, blah, blah

Here in the US only the "receiver" is recordable, which part is the receiver varies gun to gun & is decided as scientifically as all the other stuff is.Confused

In the case of my rifle that is the "Upper", unlike AR15's where it is the "lower". My rifle has a number on both & the dealer (who has been out of business for 20+ years) wrote down the wrong number on the receipt so my serial number, which is on the upper, is not listed (because you can't have any lists of numbers) comes up as something different as the lower's number is the same as something else no-one can figure out, again because you cant list the numbers that could be put on a list.Censored I have an un-numbered lower ( perfectly legal here remember my upper is the "recordable part") but I don't want to do a strip & rebuild as the existing setup is more accurate than it's supposed to be & I don't want to mess with it Fun, Fun, Fun.






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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 1:54am
I get some C&R Rifles in from time to time that have new electro penciled No#s on them along with the original Sr. No#s ...
I go with what is on the receipt from the wholesale or Importer and make sure the new Nos match also ....
Some time ago the Gov. started making the importers re-number the Rifles that were being imported ...now You have all these no# on Your Rifle and it only distracts from the beauty of the original state it was in .....Kinda makes You sick when they do that ...
as for the ARs Its the same here in La. Upper is not Sr# at all but the Lower is .....


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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 2:52am
My local gun dealer has another No4 Mk2 in .410. It has two numbers just like the one's on my rifle, he made the mistake of declaring both numbers.
 
Now he is involved in a massive dispute with the authorities on why he has two numbers on his registier and only one firearm!!!!!!  I think I'll keep very quiet over that second number!


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 3:08am
Cool... A No4 Mk2 in .410 ??? I didnt know they did them in .410  A Must have for Me when all this trouble passes that Im having with My account .....   Well also after I order some long over due parts that I need .......

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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 6:07am
A .410 shotgun

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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 6:17am
Yes , I have only seen them in the No#I Mk III actions  never seen or heard of any No#4 Mk 1 actions re-chambered to .410

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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 07 2011 at 6:51am
"...............
Some time ago the Gov. started making the importers re-number the Rifles that were being imported ...now You have all these no# on Your Rifle and it only distracts from the beauty of the original state it was in .....Kinda makes You sick when they do that
................"

WR -
boy , do i hear you here , its not necessary at all - just use the number she was born with ,


my questions on the mk2 being FTR'd in 57 ............

1) did this bear a conversion mark I/2 or I/3 that you can see ?
FAZ & EFD did these 49-56 ,

2)wonder who made this originally ?
FAZ was using the "A" prefix in 1942 , they were assigned serial 20000 - 29999 ,
BSA was assigned the four digits starting in 1000-1999 & 40000-49999 and were using the "A" prefix in 1941 & 1944 ,
and maltby was using the "A" prefix in 1941 , they were assigned 10000-19999 ,

3) is that a '5' or a suffix "S" ?
if a '5' it would be a maltby , most likely a mkI , there were some marked I* but it would still have been a mkI i think , conversion would be I/2 ,
none were using the suffix "S"  , IIRC an "A" suffix denoted 'non-interchangeable bits'

the mk2 is a post war rifle , only FAZ made mk2 rifles starting in 1/49 , and i think the post war production rifles serials start with PF prefix  , untill the UF of 1955 ,




Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 1:47am
The one thing I have learned about Lee Enfields is that nothing is quite what it seems. I had the same trouble with my 7.62.  Sorry about the photographs, it's a new camera and I don't think it is one of my best buys.
 
The 'S' is a 5. I'd love to know something of it's history, so it's over to you boys!
 
What I can tell you is this.
 
It's a low mileage Land Rover Discovery 300 Safari in a limited edition colour of silver (Most were green), it came complete with expedition rack, rear door ladder, spot lights (replaced) and bull bar. It now has a Safari Snorkel, up rated suspension, second battery, Outback extra wide axles and all terrain tyres. I know more about my Discoverys than I do about my rifles! Smile


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 2:20am
The only other mark I can see is 'F56', this is stamped on the barrel band and on the magazine floor plate along with a small 'F' in a shield. The serial number appears on the bottom of the magazine minus the 'A'.  There is a  very small stamp on the top of the butt plate but I can not work out what it is. I haven't had the woodwork off as yet but there is a faint serial number stamped on the forestock close to the underneath of the fore sight. I can not read the number but I don't think it is the same as the serial number on the reciever.
 
A 10 damn you sir! I was happy in my ignorance! Smile NowI need to know!!! LOL.


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 5:52am
Am I seeing things or is the "4" overstamped as a "1" in the designation? As in "No4 Mk2" being "No1 Mk2", whatever a No1 Mk2 isConfused

Looking as close as I can at the "No4 Mk2" part of the stamping is beginning to look like quite a lot of re (or over) stamping was done from the look of different parts of the individual letters & numbers. The last digit of the A serial; # seems to be more like an "S" than a "5" as wellShocked


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 7:35am
as shamu notes it looked like an "S" to me , but given my eyes are fooling me , and it is a "5" then its a maltby originally ,

and that would have been a mkI [even tho they miss-marked some as mkI* - they didn't make a mkI* - only savage and longbranch made those]

and it had to have been converted from a mkI to a mk2 at FAZ or EFD at some point and marked as mkI/2 ,

somewhere it was FTR'd in 57 , almost certainly at FAZ as they were the only ones at that time IIRC ,

also as shamu notes the stamped markings are confusing as they look over-stamped and generally a FAZ rework would result in electro pencil remarking ,

the 418014 was added at some point [import/export ?]




Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 08 2011 at 10:26am
Mis-stamps are a bit more common than some think IMHO!
I was Issued, Issued, not I bought, I was issued, from stores, a No 4 Mk1(T)*, but it had a No4 (no *) type bolt release.
It was brand spankin' new in the crate the whole 9 yards, but was marked as a No4 MkI (T)*.

We immediately ordered 4 more of them & got them BTW.Wink



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 2:31am
interesting shamu , you dont recall which mfgr by any chance ?
were the other four "T"s mkIs in mkI* clothing ?

............and had that rifle been a mkI* the conversion to mk2 would have made it a mkI/3 


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 4:34am
I have had another very close look tonight.  It is clean of all other markings except two very small (3mm across) stamps. One just under the safety catch and the other directly opposite on the righthand side.
 
The one under the safety, looks at first like a very small crown but under a magnifying glass it's an arrow and under it are two numbers, 48 and 55.
 
The righthand stamp is equally small and looks like a spot of rust at first but under magnification it is a 'H' over '37'.
 
I've looked at the number on the fore stock, it is faint but the serial number matches the faint marks.


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 5:40am
IIRC they were all Faz's. Only the one was mis-marked, the others were marked correctly.

What I think happened is that there was a pool somewhere of new rifles somehow earmarked for the RAF, heck they may already have been in RAF inventory somewhere. As orders came in from units ( mostly for the Squadron shooting team or some such) then these were simply pulled from the pool & distributed as asked for. At the time SLR's were the standard issue & had been for a while. I believe, but have no proof, that someone at  a warehouse somewhere in the system was just glad of the space & inventory reduction. Enfields had been replaced by L39 or L42's by then as well, so from a warehousing POV they were just "old stuff taking up space". The GroPos probably had no use for them so we were a godsend in some ways.

I do remember the serial # of one issued Faz, it was slap in the middle of a batch of "U55" faz RAF contract rifles that has never shown up. I'm guessing that was maybe shipped from the factory to RAF stores & disposed of independently somehow, (Probably into the North SeaCry) accounting for the 5,000 or so missing #s from the middle of the run. It came to me to replace the one that was mis-stamped, that became "Unaccounted for" during a ballistics test at the Proof House in Birmingham.Confused The replacement was a FAZ #4 Mk2, almost identical to the mummy I unwrapped as my rifle now.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 11:06am
Originally posted by White Rhino White Rhino wrote:

Yes , I have only seen them in the No#I Mk III actions  never seen or heard of any No#4 Mk 1 actions re-chambered to .410
 
Is that my old friend?


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 09 2011 at 11:29am
it would be new to me as well ,  but not surprising , that area of the world has a history , but hey , id like one again - maybe re-cut a badly abused rifle bbl 


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 4:32am
I took all the wood off today.  The barrel is clean, not a mark or a scratch and if I didn't know better I'd say it was new as in last week!  There are only two stamps on the barrel, one is the Birmingham proof house 'BNP' amd the second is a capital 'F' with '56' underneath. There's not even any dirt under there.
 
Looking really closely at the wood forestock, it's stamped A16285 and then on the lefthand side of the butt stock and only visible under a really strong ultra voilet light the second number is 48014.


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 10:45am
DRC any recent photos of this project


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 14 2011 at 10:21pm
I take it you mean decent photos.  The camera I used was very disappointing and will be going back to the shop. I'll try and borrow a 'proper' one and post some better images.  Although, what markings there are, are very small.

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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 8:04am
No recent photos that are current of this rifle


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 2:14am
I'm begining to feel cheated, everyone else has a rifle with a story to tell and I have the original 'grey man'.  I've arranged to borrow a high qualitity camera this weekend and will post the results.  I have a feeling this one has no history.
 
(Yet!).


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 6:02am
I finally got the time to go to the range today.  Here are the results at 100 yards. The weather was fine and sunny, 55 degrees F and no wind. I used PPU 174 gr FMJ BT. For a first outing I'm a happy puppy!
 


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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 6:07am
Nice Rifle DRC !!!

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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 1:19pm
Agreed Rhino



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