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No.1 Mk 1

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5387
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 7:37am
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Topic: No.1 Mk 1
Posted By: seeker
Subject: No.1 Mk 1
Date Posted: August 12 2012 at 10:05am
I am in the process of winding up the estate of my late father-in-law and have recently unwrapped what I believe is an Enfield No.1 Mk.1. I am a bit of a ludite and cannot provide pictures at his time. (I am wating for one of the grand kids to visit and help me out with that.) In the meantime, I am looking for any information which can help me better authenticate the rifle.
 
The receiver is stamped with a crown over the initials VR. Under the VR is stamped BSA Co. and below that is the date 1901. Below that is stamped LE over a numeral 1 beside a 6 (maybe 7) pointed star. The serial number on the bolt and the receiver is A69422. The butt plate is stamped with the British broad arrow and a crest to worn to be readable. Below that is stamped 2 CMR and below that is stamped the number 735.
 
For what it's worth, I do know that 2 CMR refers to the 2nd Regiment Canadian Mounted Rifles and that the regiment was formed in 1901 as part of the Canadian Expedtionary Forces deployed to South Africa in the 2nd Boer War.  
 
One of my concerns about authenticity is that Good Queen Vicki (VR) snuffed it in January of 1901. I would have thought that a rifle manufactured in 1901 would be stamped ER for Edward VII.
 
If I have dropped this posting into the wrong Forum, my apologies, and please tell me where it should go. Any information will be greatly appreciated.



Replies:
Posted By: Cookie Monster
Date Posted: August 12 2012 at 1:37pm
Welcome to the forum, your discription is very good however pictures will be nice when you can.


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: August 13 2012 at 11:04am
Your description is of a 1901 Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.I* (not a No.1 Mk.1)

The butt plate certainly is marked to the Second Canadian Mounted Rifles, however, Canada purchased Mk.I rifles in 1896/97. The Mk.I* was never actually used in Canadian service.
 
But I should never say never with Lee Enfields 

Likely that this is a surplus rifle that has found its way over to Canada and sold on the civilian market. It probably picked up the butt sometime after it got here.

To be sold out of England by the gun trade, it would have to be proofed and stamped. What markings are there on the left hand side of the barrel right up by the breach?

An actual Canadian service rifle would not have civvy proofs.

1901 with Queen Victoria cypher is correct. The change over to king Edward was not immediate, new dies had to be made.






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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: August 14 2012 at 1:04am
dittos what he said [but i might not have put it so well] , the rifle is a long Lee Enfeild , not the Short Magazine Lee Enfeild - as it predates those
 
sounds an interesting rifle even with the parts changes , does it have the small flip up arm with peep on the left reciever aft ? and the dial and pointer on the left forearm midship ?
how long is the barrel and overall rifle ?
is the cutoff still in place just below mid bolt starboard side ?
 


Posted By: seeker
Date Posted: August 17 2012 at 2:17am
Thanks to all who have taken the time to reply. I have finally managed to generate some images which, I hope, will help clear up some of my and your questions.
 
1. A couple of long shots
 
 
2. Manufacturers markings
 
3. Top Of Butt Plate
 
4. Breech with Cut Out in open position
 
5. Left side showing the rear portion of the Volley Sight is missing and the slide part of the top sight is missing as well.


Posted By: seeker
Date Posted: August 17 2012 at 2:39am
Thanks for your input englishman_ca.
 
I can find no marking on the left side of the barrel, breach or stock. What should i be looking for in relation to "civvy markings"
 
You mentioned that Canada purchased MK.1's in 1896/97. How does this tie in with a rifle stamped 1901? Should I be suspicious of the date stamp?
 
To A Square 10 think the pictures I just posted should answer your questions. The cutoff is in place but the rear half of the volley sight is missing.
 
Thanks again for your time and input.
 
 


Posted By: John Sukey
Date Posted: August 17 2012 at 11:57am
Vicky didn't kick off on Jnuary ist 1901, so it's logical the rifle was built before she did
CMP; Corps of Military Police


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: August 18 2012 at 11:20am
That is a Long Magazine Lee Enfield MkI*.  Oh my goodness - you have one of those!  The dust cover is missing but if you can find a replacement that would be wonderful (so is the rear volley sight.  If I come across one I'll let you know but your chances are better than mine).  I have a 1902 model of one of those.  Mine wasn't as issued so it got a slight modification.  Here it is (don't choke! Shocked)


I have changed nothing on the action but I did fit a new No4 barrel to it.  It is a wonderfully accurate and balanced rifle.  I did fit a MkIII trigger to it and I lost the magazine cut-off (never figured out where it went) but kept the other bits.

Here's how I mounted the scope.


It's soft soldered on.


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303Guy


Posted By: seeker
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 6:11am
Much Thanks for the info 303guy. Now it's time to show my ignorance. What is the dust cover to which you are referring?

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Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 11:18am
Under the scope mount bridge you can see it in the pic.  It covers the bolt when the action is closed.  On the bolt are two lug things - those are the cover mounts.  If only my camera were working I'g post some clear photo's.

You may be able to make it out in these pics.

That is such a neat little carbine to carry around and shoot with!  That last pic has the original bolt with the safety catch.  I don't use a safety - I carry a rifle with the bolt open.  I don't believe in 'safeties'.  (I did have a problem with bolt open carry in the deep dark woods.  The bolt got jambed up with debris!)Shocked


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303Guy


Posted By: sayak
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 2:51pm
Love the schnabel forearm .303 guy. In Fact I love the whole rifle!

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I support hard work, creativity, freedom, responsibility and truth


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 3:14pm
I've never fired it with full power loads.  It has damaged lug recesses and has been down graded.  (Not sure what to do with it - the action should not fall into anyone else's hands.  It can't be repaired - I should chop it up.  I was using it with paper patched bullets to suite the well worn bore).

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303Guy


Posted By: 5thBatt
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by 303Guy 303Guy wrote:

I've never fired it with full power loads.  It has damaged lug recesses and has been down graded.  (Not sure what to do with it - the action should not fall into anyone else's hands.  It can't be repaired - I should chop it up.  I was using it with paper patched bullets to suite the well worn bore).
With the amount of 303s around NZ, i cannot understand why you would bother with it, cut it up & throw it away.

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"the master has spoken" if he's the master, then I'm Dr Who.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 6:58pm
They cost money.  But you're right.  It's not worth the risk.  I do have another one with a very poor barrel that I'll use instead.  But this one is an 1896 BSA & Co ..... 

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303Guy


Posted By: 5thBatt
Date Posted: August 19 2012 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by 303Guy 303Guy wrote:

  But this one is an 1896 BSA & Co ..... 
The receiver is the same , you would just as likely strike problems fitting your bits to another 1902 receiver.


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"the master has spoken" if he's the master, then I'm Dr Who.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: August 20 2012 at 12:16am
the missing bits are attainable , it will take a little dilligent searching and some cash , but she is a fine looking rifle and well worth the efforts


Posted By: seeker
Date Posted: August 21 2012 at 4:23am
I wish to thank you all for your input and assistance. Thanks to information gleaned from this forum, your assistance, and my grand-daughters keen eyesight I have made a somewhat remarkable discovery. 
I have been able to trace the rifle to Pte. David C Hannah, Regimental # 735, C Squadron, 2nd Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles on active duty from Feb 1902 to Jun 1902 in the Transvaal region of South Africa. 
While it is difficult to make out in the picture, you can see D C Hannah clearly stamped on the side of the stock. (Well maybe not so clearly as it took the keen eyesight of a 7 year old to point it out to me.) I was able to identify him through the nominal roll of the regiment. From there I was able to access his service record on line.
I am now in the process of attempting to locate descendants of Pte. Hannah with the intent of offering the rifle to them as a keepsake.
I am not a gun collector, or owner for that matter. I joined this forum with the specific intention of gathering information to help authenticate the rifle for valuation purposes connected with the wind-up of my father-in-laws estate. I find, however, that there is a great deal of information shared here, not just gun information. I also find that the cast of, dare I say, "characters" inhabiting the forum seem to be much of the same mind and opinions as myself. I just might stick around if no one objects.
 


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Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: August 21 2012 at 6:07am
Please stick around.
We can always use new "charecters".


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: August 21 2012 at 8:03am
we would be honored if you would stay , join in , contribute to the madness , its a wonderful crowd


Posted By: Wardds
Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 4:15am
Here's my baby


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 7:29am
OP. Canada was one of the few countries that at any time allowed their soldiers to keep their rifles.

Often I hear a tale of how Grandpa brought his rifle home from the war. Usually a quick look at markings can debunk the story. eg, 1963 dated civvy proof marks on the breech. What usually happens is that the rifle was the same type as what Grandpa carried and the story got changed on the chinese telephone to be the actual one that he carried.

Not so in this case. On the return of Canadian troops from South Africa in 1902, a request was granted by the Canadian government for troops to keep their rifles if they so chose. Your rifle displays blatant evidence of this by the marked name. This is a really excellent find with tremendous history. This is a great item for either the gun collector or the Canadiana historian.

It will command a premium should it ever be sold. It has a significant providence.  Do not touch the finish or clean anything other than maybe wipe the metal with a soft cloth and gun oil, the woodwork with a soft cloth and linseed oil. Maybe clean and oil the bore. Nothing more.

Might I suggest that you write the information that you have found on a slip of good quality paper and insert it into the butt trap under the brass butt plate for a future generation to find.

Well done. Thank you for sharing this gem with us.




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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 11:22pm
that 1901 mk 1* is one fine looking rifle , i would be proud to own that rifle , 

im not adverse to the sported rifles shown , they are fine examples and most likely better rifles than i might have found for my hunting purposes had i been so inclined , but these are not my taste , i will simply say good on you , 


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 5:54am
1901 date stamp.

The rifle itself is dated, not so with the butt stock. One bolt and it can be changed out. No sure way to tell if this is the original without seeing the markings on the side of the butt stock. Even so, the butt plate itself might have been changed out. No way to tell. Detective work.

Canada bought Mk.I rifles, not Mk.I*, so yes, the 1901 date raises some questions.

One way that a Mk.I* could end up in Canadian hands would be in South Africa during the war, if a Canadian rifle had to be replaced, one was drawn from Imperial Stores and issued.

I had a Mk.i* that with a butt plate marked to the 5CMR. A sporter that I restored. No way to tell if the butt was was original to the rifle.

Your butt plate has a broad arrow marking typical of BSA 1897 onwards. The BSA factory inspection stamp is correct for a 1901. So the butt plate could (I say could) be the rifle's original 1901 plate.

Pic needed of right hand side of butt stock.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 1:39pm
With regards to those missing bits...

If I were to fit a receiver mounted aperture sight to the rifle, I would need to remove the volley arm assembly and replace it with the target sight using the existing volley sight holes. I see a screw in the pic,  inserted into the volley arm pivot hole. Same kinda screw as used to mount a sight, it is definately not a pivot screw.

Once I had the sight mounted, I might have to remove the original sight leaf from the rifle sight bed to allow for low sighting line for close ranges.

So my guess is that the parts are missing because the rifle was last used fitted with target sights. 

I would need to see every marking on the thing to make a determination.

But for now, look for civy proof marks on the barrel underneath the rear handguard. If this came directly gtom South Africa as a bring back, it would not have civvy proofs. This would just confirm or deny one possible scenario.
The curved front of the wood is to allow you to get your finger tips under it to pull up. The handguard is retained by two stiff spring clips that encompass the barrel. Pull straight up.
Once you get the handguard off, look on the barrel reinforce. Look for a group of markings such as '.303'. Look for '2.22'. Look for '18.5 tons'. Look for 'BM'. Look for 'BNP'.

Or...

Take more close uppics, please Smile


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!



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