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My No.1 MKIII SMLE - Restoring begins! 10/22/17

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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7744
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Topic: My No.1 MKIII SMLE - Restoring begins! 10/22/17
Posted By: BMP
Subject: My No.1 MKIII SMLE - Restoring begins! 10/22/17
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 3:40pm
Back in 1983, when I was 14, I inherited this Lee Enfield from my Great Great Uncle. Someone sporterized the stock but left the rest untouched. I got some ammunition for it, shot it a few times and put it away. About a year later my brother asked if he could shoot it. When he went to check the bore it looked obstructed. He said I probably shot corrosive ammo through it and the barrel was ruined. I put the gun back away and didn't touch it until a couple weeks ago. I ended working on cleaning it up and decided to see what was wrong with it. I pushed an old jag and rod through the crud. To my surprise it wasn't rust that came out, it was dirt. I pushed a glob of dirt with a cocoon like thing out of the barrel. Whatever it was made a nest in it! LOL Long story short after some elbow grease it came out shiny and clean and no pits were visible at all. I took it to my gunsmith buddy and he checked the headspace. It is right at .004 over. He said shoot it! I was so excited that the barrel was not ruined! I bought some Prvi Partisan 180 SP's for it from Midway. They drop in the chamber and the bullets muzzle check about two thirds in. I also acquired some Igman 180 FMJ's. They drop in as well but muzzle check about three quarters of the way in. I can't wait to shoot it! These rifles are AWESOME! I just wish I would have inspected it a long time ago. I could have been enjoying it for the past 30 years! SmileSmileSmile
 
Brad
 
 


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA




Replies:
Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 4:40pm
I had got 3 barreled actions that were full of dirt , it looked like they had sat in a closet for a long time before the guy I got them from traded them to me !!!
I was worried like you when I looked down them they looked bad, but when the first patch came out covered with dusty ghost turds I was a bit relieved .....


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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 4:41pm
Is there anything stamped on the I.D. disk?

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by White Rhino White Rhino wrote:

I had got 3 barreled actions that were full of dirt , it looked like they had sat in a closet for a long time before the guy I got them from traded them to me !!!
I was worried like you when I looked down them they looked bad, but when the first patch came out covered with dusty ghost turds I was a bit relieved .....
 
Thumbs up!
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 5:50pm
Dusty ghost turds? Now there is a term I haven't heard before! NICE rifle, BMP!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

Is there anything stamped on the I.D. disk?
 


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 5:59pm


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 6:02pm
Thanks Canuck!
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 6:04pm
Nice looking rifle! I've been there before on the ghost turds!...lol.. What is stamped on the right side of the wrist, under the bolt handle? I am curious on the year and manufacturer, especially since it had an early style cocking piece on the bolt.


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 6:06pm


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 6:09pm
Hey bear I posted one above your post. It's kind of fuzzy. It looks like it is a SHT LE????
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 25 2015 at 6:56pm
The bolt says 1476 on it.
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2015 at 5:43am
Probably a mud dauber wasp had nested in there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber
They love little tight tubes.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: October 26 2015 at 6:30am
Although cut down, these old L-Enfields still look attractive to me!
 
Very pleased the bore is good!
I once bought a Kar '98 at auction. looked good on the outside but we couldn't see through the barrel.
Got it for $50. 00 on spec.
Turned out it was a small roll of tissue paper in the bore just in front of the chamber, and the bore was As New! Not a mark in it , just perfect!
Sometimes we land on our feet....
 
Richard.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 26 2015 at 8:23am
..my "Vimy Vet" was much the same. Stuffed up with bits of old oily rags & stuffed into the barn.
Porcupine - or something - got into the barn @ some point & chewed the wood poles on the Nazi general's flags my x-fiancés father had put in there, along with all the old rifles her grandfather had.(Guess the mice made homes out of the flags.)
It was a miracle that the critter didn't chew - up the Enfield, too.
When I finally got the thing unstuffed, it turned out to be a beauty!!

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Probably a mud dauber wasp had nested in there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber
They love little tight tubes.


Those Dirt Daubers are bad here !!!  Left some work gloves laying out in the shop !!  went to put them on, they had a dirt dauber nest in each ringer !!!!
My Mother and the kids decided it would be nice to clean the wood shop for me one time , when they finished they had filled 4, 5 gal. buckets with dirt dauber nests and spider webs !!!!
Now its just as bad as it was then !!!  guess thats the price you pay to live out in the swamp like I do !!!
If Im not knocking dirt dauber nests of things, Im getting stung by the red wasps, or transferring a snake or an Alligator on down the road ... or fighting with a racoon or possum for control of my barn and shop !!!!!  oh cant leave out the Armadillos !!!! they destroy a yard in no time !!
As for the Foxes , Coyotes, and other critters. they only take all the chickens and other fowl , they leave ya alone after that !!! until you get more !!!!
Good thing the Black bears that live around me have not decided that my place is a grocery store !!!


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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 26 2015 at 10:30am
Thanks for the stories guys! Keep em coming!
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 30 2015 at 4:51am
I shot my rifle last night in the back yard and hit the pop can I was aiming for. It is so much fun shooting these old rifles!!!! I can't wait to get some targets set up so I can see how well it groups!
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: June 19 2016 at 4:30pm
I went to a military shoot last weekend. My Enfield won the military rifle open sights class! There were quite a few unaltered rifles there and I was wishing mine was not sporterized. Question....... Would there be a chance of degrading accuracy of the rifle if it were brought back to original condition with a full handguard/nosecap?
 
Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 20 2016 at 8:55am
They do require individual fitting, so yes, its possible. But its also possible that it would improve if the fitting was done well as the originals used a spring-loaded "tab" at the front to fine tune the barrel, something you can't do with most sporter stocks.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 20 2016 at 8:47pm
i need an explanation of the date on that enfield made rifle - it has a very interesting first character in that photo - it should be a 1 but appears something else 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 4:07am
Great to hear that your Enfield won competition. What distance do you shoot at?
I'm off on Friday to shoot at our Service rifle National finals with my No1MkIII*; although I don't expect to be anywhere near the top. If I can improve my score I'll be happy.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 7:44am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

i need an explanation of the date on that enfield made rifle - it has a very interesting first character in that photo - it should be a 1 but appears something else 


I will get a better picture for you this evening.

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 7:48am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

They do require individual fitting, so yes, its possible. But its also possible that it would improve if the fitting was done well as the originals used a spring-loaded "tab" at the front to fine tune the barrel, something you can't do with most sporter stocks.


I am patient and will research fitting an Enfield stock before I ever start. I have done glass bedding jobs on several rimfire and center fire guns. I have not done too much wood working other than a sand/finish/bedding job on a Boyds Blaster for a 10/22.

The No.1 stocks are hard to come by...... It's going to be an adventure getting this thing back to original or close to it!

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Great to hear that your Enfield won competition. What distance do you shoot at?
I'm off on Friday to shoot at our Service rifle National finals with my No1MkIII*; although I don't expect to be anywhere near the top. If I can improve my score I'll be happy.


Just 100 and 200 yards. It was a short stroke!

Best of luck to you at the finals with your LE!

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 12:16pm
What I found was that you used a diminishing loop through the bedding contact points.
King screw/bushing/recoil shoulders & trigger guard first, then Knoxx form, then barrel clear channel but bedded tip, then butt socket & forend to wrist, then back to the front & rear of the trigger guard. Each time you go through the loop you make smaller & smaller changes as needed till there's no more to do.

Its not exactly traditional but I like (cleaned) soda/beer can strips for shim. Why? Because its so thin you can cut with kitchen shears, bend with bare hands (although I suggest gloves be worn), & built up in tiny layers like a laminate. You can use things like fired cases as hole punches too. That makes it very easy to add or subtract a little pressure easily when "tuning" for fit.



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Great to hear that your Enfield won competition. What distance do you shoot at?
I'm off on Friday to shoot at our Service rifle National finals with my No1MkIII*; although I don't expect to be anywhere near the top. If I can improve my score I'll be happy.







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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 22 2016 at 9:23pm
ah - 1917 , that is a far better photo , thanks 


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 22 2017 at 9:14am
I'm wanting to restore this rifle to period correct wood and metal and have a few question for you experts!

Can anyone help with what facility this rifle would have been produced out of?
Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield
 
What original wood type would it have been built on?
 
Which era nose metal and bands was it suppose to have?
 
I believe it should have a later serrated cocking piece, right?

Having an "S" or "school" disc on the buttstock; does this this seem like it could be the original stock for this rifle?

Also, with a stamp of "17" on the left barrel side; does that meant it was re barrelled in 1917? The barrel was numbered 1026 previous and Xed out. Why would a 1917 need to be re barrelled in its same year?

The bolt handle is one number off from the barrel/receiver. It is stamped 1476 and appears to not have been re stamped. The barrel/receiver is stamped 1475 as shown in the pictures. Was it just stamped wrong by the armorer?

Sorry for all the questions guys! These guns are addicting!!!!

Much thanks in advance!

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: October 23 2017 at 6:18am
Originally posted by BMP BMP wrote:

I'm wanting to restore this rifle to period correct wood and metal and have a few question for you experts!

Can anyone help with what facility this rifle would have been produced out of?
Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield
 
What original wood type would it have been built on?
More than likely it would have been walnut.
 
Which era nose metal and bands was it suppose to have?
Any nose cap that has the solid ears would suffice. The band for the sling swivel probably would have been the hinged type.
 
I believe it should have a later serrated cocking piece, right?
Not necessarily. They used what they had in stores at assembly and during repairs. It's not uncommon to see the older cocking piece on a newer rifle. I recommend leaving it as is.

Having an "S" or "school" disc on the buttstock; does this this seem like it could be the original stock for this rifle?
There is no way to know if the buttstock is original or not.

Also, with a stamp of "17" on the left barrel side; does that meant it was re barrelled in 1917? The barrel was numbered 1026 previous and Xed out. Why would a 1917 need to be re barrelled in its same year?
Yes, the '17 means it was re-barreled in 1917. A rifle being re-barreled in the year of manufacture is not uncommon at all. When training they put a heck of a lot of rounds through these rifles. Also consider battle damage, damage from over cleaning and such and it's not unusual.

The bolt handle is one number off from the barrel/receiver. It is stamped 1476 and appears to not have been re stamped. The barrel/receiver is stamped 1475 as shown in the pictures. Was it just stamped wrong by the armorer?
My thought would be that it was probably stamped incorrectly when the bolt was fitted. Being only one number off seems to make that more probable. A replacement bolt may also explain the older style cocking piece. As I said, they used any parts available for repairs. The armourer's didn't care what we would think of as "correct", the rifle had to function, period.

Sorry for all the questions guys! These guns are addicting!!!!

Much thanks in advance!

Brad


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 23 2017 at 10:00am
Thanks Bear!

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 23 2017 at 6:23pm
an example well worth your efforts and the bits you need should be findable with options oof quality etc , these were the more prolific of the early rifles , you have a keeper and a great project , 


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 30 2017 at 1:50pm
On the bench ready for replacement wood and metal!

Brad



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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 30 2017 at 1:58pm
wait...wait...that's not a No. 1 bayonet in top right.

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: October 30 2017 at 3:08pm
Top left maybe? It's a #4 bayonet.

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 30 2017 at 4:42pm
yup - left and no 4 , project looking good 


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: October 31 2017 at 9:16am
Thanks guys!

Any guesses on the barrel top center? LOL

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 31 2017 at 12:40pm
Ithaca 37?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 31 2017 at 1:18pm
I meant the "OTHER" right

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 01 2017 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Ithaca 37?


No, not an Ithaca. Tongue

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 01 2017 at 5:24pm
i have an ithaca 37 , fun old guns , mine works most of the time - except when you want it to - are counting on it ...


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 01 2017 at 7:27pm
Last week I got done stripping and cleaning my Grandpa Kizer's Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight 16 gauge and I know that barrel is not off an Ithaca 37. Other than that I am stumped. So, what's it from?


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 02 2017 at 6:46am
It's to a Sportsman 58 Remington. The 58 was the predecessor to the 1100 and was Remington's first gas shotgun. It used a barrel that is identical to an 870 but had gas ports drilled in the attachment loop.

I inherited the 58 from my late grandpa Verlan. That gun took hundreds of pheasants from '59 till up in the late 90's.

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 02 2017 at 2:24pm
BTW - 
The bolt handle is one number off from the barrel/receiver. It is stamped 1476 and appears to not have been re stamped. The barrel/receiver is stamped 1475 as shown in the pictures. Was it just stamped wrong by the armorer?
My thought would be that it was probably stamped incorrectly when the bolt was fitted. Being only one number off seems to make that more probable. A replacement bolt may also explain the older style cocking piece. As I said, they used any parts available for repairs. The armourer's didn't care what we would think of as "correct", the rifle had to function, period

i think its possible they overstamped the original prefix , ROF Enfield used the O prefix in 1917 [as well as 16 & 18 and switched from mkIII to mkIII* in 1916 ]



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 02 2017 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:


i think its possible they overstamped the original prefix , ROF Enfield used the O prefix in 1917 [as well as 16 & 18 and switched from mkIII to mkIII* in 1916 ]


I just looked at the bolt again. It does look like the bolt has been ground on, quite possibly removing the original number, and the O 1476 stamped on it. I will post pics of it as well as another mark I found near the bolt knob soon.

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 03 2017 at 3:09am







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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 03 2017 at 12:05pm
Birmingham style Brit Govt broad arrow acceptance mark and a BSA factory inspector mark.

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.
.
Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 04 2017 at 5:59am
Excellent information from ALL you guys! I just wish I could see where this rifle has been!

I assumed the bolt and barrel were fit at the same time, but I noticed that the #4 stamp on both pieces do not match. 

Do I have myself correct with it's timeline.

The receiver was originally produced as an RSAF Enfield in 1917.

Barrel changed in 1917. This replacement barrel was originally fitted earlier to rifle O 1026.

A BSA bolt was fitted and stamped one number off incorrectly in 19XX.

More questions for the pros!

Does the font of the stamp indicate a facility or era?

Is the "O" stamp on the receiver original to its serial number or was it added later when parts were refitted? 

Thanks again my Enfield brothers!

Brad




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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: November 04 2017 at 8:45am
..."3 Band Enfield Brothers"

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 04 2017 at 12:15pm
Here is a thought or two of the time line on this rifle.

The barrel is a recycled one, the 1917 date on it comes from its first incarnation, not so much as when it was fitted to your rifle..

What is readily apparent is that it was fitted and the barrel was renumbered, suggesting to me that it was an official swap done in service by an armourer. This also suggests to me that it was done post 1925. 

Here is a tidbit of Enfield minutia;... Before 1925, according to British regulations, it was the barrel that was considered to be the master component of a rifle. This goes back to the days of muzzle loaders, the barrel was the gun. 
If the barrel on your rifle had been changed out before Jan 1925, it would have been the receiver that was renumbered to match, the barrel having the master serial number.
In 1925 things changed and it applies today, in that it is now the receiver that is deemed to be the master component. A replacement barrel would be renumbered to match the receiver serial, as yours is.

The bolt is another recycled component renumbered, albeit with a typo, is likely an armourer's change too. So this war horse has been there and has put on some miles in service. It might have been through two world wars and had more than one barrel change.


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.
.
Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 04 2017 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

..."3 Band Enfield Brothers"


This group is the best! Clap

Brad




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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA



Posted By: BMP
Date Posted: November 04 2017 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by englishman_ca englishman_ca wrote:

Here is a thought or two of the time line on this rifle.

The barrel is a recycled one, the 1917 date on it comes from its first incarnation, not so much as when it was fitted to your rifle..

What is readily apparent is that it was fitted and the barrel was renumbered, suggesting to me that it was an official swap done in service by an armourer. This also suggests to me that it was done post 1925. 

Here is a tidbit of Enfield minutia;... Before 1925, according to British regulations, it was the barrel that was considered to be the master component of a rifle. This goes back to the days of muzzle loaders, the barrel was the gun. 
If the barrel on your rifle had been changed out before Jan 1925, it would have been the receiver that was renumbered to match, the barrel having the master serial number.
In 1925 things changed and it applies today, in that it is now the receiver that is deemed to be the master component. A replacement barrel would be renumbered to match the receiver serial, as yours is.

The bolt is another recycled component renumbered, albeit with a typo, is likely an armourer's change too. So this war horse has been there and has put on some miles in service. It might have been through two world wars and had more than one barrel change.


Thanks so much for the information! You guys are an elite bunch that produce a wealth of knowledge! I am learning and absorbing everything!

I am so glad to be able to get this thing back in it's original configuration. I still need to locate the fore end walnut pieces.  It's been a job!

Cheers to you fine gents! Beer

Brad


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1917 NO1. MKIII ShtLE
1942 NO4. MK1 four digit BSA




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