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Infamous Ross

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
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Forum Name: Military Talk
Forum Description: Feel free to talk about anything military related.
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8239
Printed Date: April 22 2018 at 11:24am
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Topic: Infamous Ross
Posted By: hoadie
Subject: Infamous Ross
Date Posted: October 04 2016 at 1:53pm
I stumbled across one of my Legion magazines that I hadn't read yet.(Its a few months old.)
Contained therein was another slamming / damning article about the Ross.
To be fair - the most decorated Canadian snipers of the 1st whirl at war, used Ross rifles. And they were both Aboriginals. (Niether were Cree - dang it! Bragging rights n' all that.)

Its a fairly short article, but I'll save it in case anyone wants it.
(Wish I had one - just to hangon the wall.)

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Loose wimmen tightened here



Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 04 2016 at 3:30pm
i at one point wanted one or two , but as i was seeking them out i discovered they were quite spendy and hard to find in good nick , always seemed to be issues i wasnt ready to accept at the cost 


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: October 04 2016 at 3:45pm
An aboriginal or a ross Hoadie??


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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons

Born free taxed to death!!!



Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 04 2016 at 7:37pm
..the ROSS, you heathen!



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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 8:49am
I have a Ross and I still shoot it.

Great gun! Made in Canada and always goes bang.

My sons messed with my son in law with a Ross.

My son in law just got done shooting a Enfield and my sons gave him the Ross to shoot.

The Ross bolt just was to much for him to understand.

Yes I enjoy a good Ross.

My rifle is US marked and has some initials on it "LC" on the action.

Must have been Lee Charles favorite gun!



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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 9:28am
The ability to mis asssemble the bolt scared the bejesus out of me!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 05 2016 at 4:15pm
I remember some old sweats from the 1st twirl at war that had been issued them.
One in particular said it was a very good RIFLE..in training. But it was hard to be accurate, when you rolled your head to the left. (In case the bolt flew back into your squash.) When training in Niagara on the Lake the guy beside him on the platform was killed when that happened.
He also said that upon arrival in Blighty, they turned in their web kit - right at the docks & were issued proper British web.(Theirs were burned right on site.)
Wasn't long afterward they were actually issued LE's.

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 06 2016 at 8:12am
I have two of the ammo pouches in leather put away.

I heard the problem was with mud killed the Ross rifles.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 06 2016 at 8:37am
It was supposed to be finicky about mud. On the bright side a jammed bolt couldn't go through your skull!
Censored


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 06 2016 at 8:49am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

It was supposed to be finicky about mud. On the bright side a jammed bolt couldn't go through your skull!
Censored

All you need is your boot or a shovel to open the bolt.



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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 06 2016 at 3:51pm
The boot wasn't always the way.ALOT of guys were killed trying to kick - open the bolt under fire.
One of the military leaders actually stated,"sending troops into battle with this rifle is akin to murder...and will no-doubt be addressed as such in the near future."
Apparently, the breach was bored @ a different size (or angle?) than what was specified for the .303. when it heated up & expanded, it would close up tighter than a bull's ass @ fly time. Throw in some mud & you've got a real problem.

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 08 2016 at 1:36am
The Ross Mk.IIIs are fine rifles and I thoroughly enjoy shooting mine. Unfortunately, they are better classed as precision target rifles than military arms.

Their precision machining and close tolerances were not proof against mud and shoddy ammunition. A lack of proper care would obviously not improve matters. They were also too long and heavy for convenient use in trench warfare.

Bolt missassembly? Well, in my view any person who takes a Ross bolt to pieces then ignores the very obvious signs that there is a problem qualifies to make the Darwin Award list. With all the information currently available, now, even more than in the past!   




Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 2:54pm
Older post but I wanted to set the record straight.  Canada requested the right to manufacture Lee Enfields just after the 2nd Boer War.. Many of the Canadian troops returned with them having originally gone over with Lee Metfords.  Britain refused so the government let a contract to Ross to produce rifles for the militia.  First ones went to the RCMP who returned them after a short while and went back to their Winchesters.    At the beginning of the WW1 the Brits were scrambling to outfit their own troops with LE's and there were none available for the "Colonials".  Not to be denied, our troops, with encouragement from commanders,  picked up those left in the field by British troops.  Finally when supplies caught up to demand a British General ordered that the Canadians be issued LE's.  Snipers stayed with the Ross but it required perfectly clean ammunition.  The whole issue was wrapped up in politics both domestic and imperial.   Deplorable behavior but not the first time soldiers have been let down and by politicians, bureaucrats and industrialists.  Won't the last either.

The story didn't end there.  The outstanding demand for and somewhat finicky nature of the Lewis LMG prompted the development of a modified Ross designed to fire full automatic.  This was the Huot developed by an Canadian engineer of the same name.  The war ended before it was adopted although it passed all trials.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 3:06pm
Terrylee.. with all do respect. The young men sent into the trenches weren't armourers! But they were expected to clean their Ross. I'm pretty experienced, and took one apart for a friend 20 years ago just to clean it. I didn't feel confident after putting it back together on letting him shoot it. One must ask oneself. If it was a revolutionary design, and so much sought after for snipers during WW1, why did their service end after the mud of Ypes, Flanders and many more battlefields of that conflict while the Enfield carried on? I'm a proud Canadian, but if a design is bad, and proven bad in battle, it's bad.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 5:39pm
Failure of the Ross caused a lot of Canadian fatalities

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 7:10pm
No doubt, not a practical battle rifle for WWI conditions.

Somewhere I’ve got a target my Dad shot with his Ross Military Match Rifle in .280 Ross. In 1966 he paid $600 for that rifle, almost 10x what he paid for his unissued complete No.4(T) kit a few years later. It was a rare model, and extremely accurate. He sold the Ross a year later for $830. I wonder what it’s worth now. He had a few other Ross rifles in .303. I wish he had kept one.

If anyone has a .280 Ross, I’ve got a few hundred rounds of Kynoch ammunition for it.





Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: March 06 2018 at 10:45pm
The .280 Ross: another fine rifle.  Britrifles, if we were in the same country, I'd take you up on your offer.




Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: March 07 2018 at 2:52am
During my time as a Firearms Dealer I had a .280 Ross by Gibbs. A beautiful rifle but I daren't shhot it.

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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 1:32pm
My latest Legion magazine also makes a brief mention of the Ross, once again. (The statement also mentions the poor quality of the clothes & webbing):

" ..men of the 1st contingent waited for uniforms to arrive. Hurriedly made by contractors chosen by Minister of Militia Sam Hughes, the uniforms had their flaws. Boots seemed to be made of paper & would fall apart in England's wet weather.
..The load bearing equipment - designed by J.W.Oliver, was an awkward, uncomfortable jumble of belts & pouches. British webbing soon replaced it.
...Weapons assigned to Canadians at the start of the war were less than perfect. The soldiers received the ROSS rifle - a fine target shooting weapon but one that jammed in field conditions. The Lee - Enfield replaced it."

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 09 2018 at 9:35pm
i wish i had bought the ross rifles i had options on back in the day , i only hesitated because of the rumers of difficulty disassemble/reassemble and dangers when not assembled correctly , i saw it as a safety issue i might not wish to own , i kick myself for not being a bit more daring at the time , 

i am sorry if some of you have limits on what you get to shoot and when , this always upsets me because i believe we are all capable and able to pick and choose the times and conditions when it is safe , i also believe we are equally safe in our ownership , which is none of any of our governments pervue to control , at least not mine - we have a constitution that guarantees my "GOD GIVEN RIGHTS" 

i shoot all my rifles and handguns , these days im going to shoot them more , ill be darned if anyone will take my second amendment rights away from me till the brass is cold as well as my hand , 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 4:36am
I suspect the infamous status of the Ross grew over time. There are lots of things that will kill you if you don’t follow directions. My Dad shot his Ross rifles, and if he still had them, I’d be shooting them, after I verified the bolt was assembled correctly.

I remember as a kid being fascinated how the bolt turned with a straight push/pull of the bolt handle. Must have been a fast action to work. I didn’t get real interested in shooting until he has sold over half of his collection. I shudder thinking about the ridiculous low prices he sold those rifles for in the early 1990s, and how they slipped thru my fingers.


Posted By: Macd
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 12:03pm
Part of the Ross problem was the ammunition.  Even when clean the rather broad variation in case sizes in the .303 rounds being produced by the millions worked okay in the generous chamber of the LE but too often just jammed in the Ross.  Not having the caming action of a turn bolt didn't help.  I have a K31 which is also straight pull and experienced the problem when using some neck sized rounds from a Model 11 rifle.

With respect to the bolt in the face issue.  Watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaSui_UqDX8" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaSui_UqDX8


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 12:18pm
To be honest, I've been unfair to the Ross. It was one of those weapons that was a head of it's time, and design features (plus mass produced ammo) meant it didn't have a chance in WW1 among the muck, mire, and horror of trench warfare. It was shelved because of the robust, dependable Lee Enfield. After the war, it was so overshadowed as a battle rifle, despite it's accuracy, it went the way of the dinosaurs. I also agree with the statement of if a knowledgeable person on this weapon assembles it, it would be a safe rifle. Again, not ideal for combat situations. But as a Canadian, I can respect the Ross.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 12:50pm
Honkytonk, I think that’s a fair and objective assessment.


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 1:37pm
It is almost an Hour long but really covers the Ross and it problems:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uGYSQ_-FJU&t=683s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uGYSQ_-FJU&t=683s


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Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: March 10 2018 at 4:34pm
I have a US marked Ross rifle and bayonet.

Still shoot it with light hand loads.

What a rifle.

My Grandfather was issued one in 1914 for the trip over the pond.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.



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