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2A1 1965 Sight Question

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Ishapore Enfields
Forum Description: Let's see those Indian Enfields!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8617
Printed Date: November 24 2017 at 5:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 2A1 1965 Sight Question
Posted By: Chris D
Subject: 2A1 1965 Sight Question
Date Posted: November 07 2017 at 3:11pm
I found an Ishapore 7.62 in my local gunshop.   Once you get past the black paint it started looking good.
 
 
Hard to read the markings with the black enamel paint but the SNs match.   1965 SN A53221.   Took some work to get the rear handguard off.  pretty thick layer of cosmoline underneath.  Wood looks good.  there is a crack on the right from near a screw at the buttstock forward but they had mortised a vertical section of wood to stop the crack so I figure this is an official repair.  
Other than that, the wood looks good, certainly a lot better than my 1918 BSA.
 
I will try to get some pictures over the next few days.
 
One anomaly and this may be an early model feature. the sight leaf is graduated for .303 up to 2000 yards not 800 for 7.62.  If someone can confirm that this is normal for an early A2/A21 I would appreciate it.  Not sure what the difference is in the two variants.
 
I used a CMP .30 muzzle gage and it gauges at 0.   I have not taken the extractor off but the CMP .308 go and No Go gauges have a cut away for the extractor and it passes both.
 
Again I will try to get pictures but first I have to figure out how to take it apart with all of the black paint clogging every screw.



Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 07 2017 at 8:29pm
the 2A has the rear sight of the 303s the 2A1 had the revised rear sight , these are very nice rifles even if not the most pleasant looking , they clean up well and represent a very real step forward in the no1 rifles , 

i had both of these versions once , they went to a young collector just getting started a good number of years ago along with my indian 303 version , i do miss them from time to time , i think you made a good purchase , you will enjoy this , 

the indians were equipped with no1 machinery when their factories were set up the pakistanis got the no4 equipment , the indians have a great history in the bayonets as well , a lot to collct in these areas , 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 08 2017 at 6:17pm
A square 10.
 
Thanks for the response.  I suspected that was the difference with between the two but was not sure.  I don't see anyway around having to remove the black paint, it is clogging the sight mechanism and covers all of the screws and connectors.  Given the large amount of cosmoline under the rear hand guard, the rifle needs a good cleaning and the wood needs some care on the inside.  If the metal looks good, I will probably leave it that way.  Funny and probably heresy for a military rifle but Cerakote black may be close to authentic.
 
 
One more question.  What was the standard bayonet for the 2A and 2A1?  was it the long 1907 pattern or the shortened version the Indians developed for the Mk III? 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 09 2017 at 4:47pm
all of those bayonets would be OK , but the more correct versions of these for the 2A &2A1 are the 12" late ones with the squared pommels and parallel grip scale edges made at GRI , RFI , NWR MIL & JU ,  they came in both a mkII*  fullered and mkII un-fullered version as well as with and without the false edge , but again any of the shortened [to 12"] or made as 12" will be just fine on this , the full length will also fit these just fine , 

i had one of each but they went with the rifles as did my long RFI version went with my ishy 303 all too many years ago , i had a shortened long version that went with the RFI 410 i had , 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 8:22am
Thanks for the advice.  I found an RFI for sale.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 1:43pm
Some pictures.  One of the 2A,  One with the 2A and my 1918 BSA MIII* and a close up of the action showing the crack and repair work on the 2A


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 5:17pm
nice looking rifles , you did well i think , you will be happy with these - buy some surplus ammo and enjoy , 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 11 2017 at 9:16am
Whats the red stripe indicate?


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PitBull, spawn of Rottie!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:52pm
thats a stock repair not a red stripe 


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 5:01pm
The Indian's did some of the best stock repairs. They never wasted wood, if it could be repaired they did and they could splice in some amazing stuff. That "stripe" is an example of Indian woodwork.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 8:50am
Wow!

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PitBull, spawn of Rottie!


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 2:56pm
Correct about the stock repair.  It was put in to stop the crack.   I will need some advice about the stock repair and will post some pictures later in the week.  While the metal is all good, having grease sit in the stock for 60 years is not so good.  I have been cleaning with alcohol and the exterior wood is cleaning up very well.  
The fore stock inside wood especially around the front guard trigger screw fore end color has broken down so that the horizontal brass pin/screw just behind the collar is clearly visible.  Some of the channels above the trigger also have years of hardened grease.
 
The question would be is it practical/worthwhile to build up the wood.  I could use my MIII* as a pattern or just order a replacement fore stock.  .308 Ishapores are available.   The rest of the fore stock is good as are the other 3 components.  Once I get them clean, I will let them dry out from the alcohol and start to apply oil.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 15 2017 at 7:08am
After allowing the stock to dry, the rear of the fore stock is ok, I still have to clean off some gunk.  I am thinking of seeing if my amateur wood working friend can cut some wood to fit over the pin to the rear of the trigger guard screw collet. 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 16 2017 at 7:32pm
wow - i mean WOW , that is a project rifle if those photos are indicative of the rest , im not sure i would bite that off so im giving you a very high HIGH FIVE on this one 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 17 2017 at 5:20am
The other three stock sections are in good shape as is everything forward of the collet area.  The area around the collet is the worst.  The very rear has some minor insect damage but now there are just a few surface lines.  The wood itself looks to be solid. 
An Ishapore 7.62 fore stock can be had relatively cheaply so I am not incurring long term risk to try to salvage this. 
After doing some consulting with a  friend who has done some restorations, I will build up the area around the collet with some glass bedding. 


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 17 2017 at 8:33am
Just my tuppence worth.

Chris, just about anything is repairable, including your fore stock.

The areas where you have damage and decay are quite critical. 
I have never been a fan of building things up with epoxy. I restore older Victorian Metfords and Enfields. Much of my refurbishing is removing the 'fixes' of previous owners. 
Epoxy might be quick and easy, but in certain applications, it just doesn't last. There is a reason that the wood broke, cracked, chipped, rotted. Your stock has problems that caused it to end up in this condition. The stock has already been repaired at the arsenal once with that brass screw rod, it has broken down and drastic measures are now needed.

An armourer would cut  the entire damaged areas out and graft in new wood for permanent repairs as good as new. Anybody with a modicum of woodworking skills can do the same. Problem is that it takes time and trial and error to get it right. I've been repairing stocks for years and I still screw up and have to rework my repair or start again. 
The repairs on your stock are perhaps something that one might have difficulty doing right the first time with a one off. I have no idea as to your woodworking skills, but this stock will be tricky.

If replacement parts are available, I would go that route. If you want just a wall hanger, then go at her with the resin and blob away. If you want to shoot the thing and have it perform well, put a decent replacement stock on it. 

Replacing a fore stock isn't just a bolt on fix, there is a defined technique to stocking up to a Lee Enfield action. 

I dont mean to seem to be negative, in fact, I encourage you to have a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, go to plan B, replace it. Lots of info on the net. Lots of people to help and guide.




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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 18 2017 at 5:46am
ChrisD. That's sound advice from Englishman. I you check out some of his previous projects; you'll see he knows what his talking about. if it was my project; I'd probably locate a good used stock and set it up properly to get it shooting. Then turn my attention to the original and have a go at a proper repair. 
Hopefully both the result and the experience would be worthwhile!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 18 2017 at 11:28am
Thanks
 
I will take your advice and go with plan B.  I will put this stock away for a couple of years when I have time on my hands to attempt the detailed wood work.
 
Chris



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