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2A1 1965 Sight Question

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Ishapore Enfields
Forum Description: Let's see those Indian Enfields!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8617
Printed Date: June 17 2018 at 3:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 2A1 1965 Sight Question
Posted By: Chris D
Subject: 2A1 1965 Sight Question
Date Posted: November 07 2017 at 3:11pm
I found an Ishapore 7.62 in my local gunshop.   Once you get past the black paint it started looking good.
 
 
Hard to read the markings with the black enamel paint but the SNs match.   1965 SN A53221.   Took some work to get the rear handguard off.  pretty thick layer of cosmoline underneath.  Wood looks good.  there is a crack on the right from near a screw at the buttstock forward but they had mortised a vertical section of wood to stop the crack so I figure this is an official repair.  
Other than that, the wood looks good, certainly a lot better than my 1918 BSA.
 
I will try to get some pictures over the next few days.
 
One anomaly and this may be an early model feature. the sight leaf is graduated for .303 up to 2000 yards not 800 for 7.62.  If someone can confirm that this is normal for an early A2/A21 I would appreciate it.  Not sure what the difference is in the two variants.
 
I used a CMP .30 muzzle gage and it gauges at 0.   I have not taken the extractor off but the CMP .308 go and No Go gauges have a cut away for the extractor and it passes both.
 
Again I will try to get pictures but first I have to figure out how to take it apart with all of the black paint clogging every screw.



Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 07 2017 at 8:29pm
the 2A has the rear sight of the 303s the 2A1 had the revised rear sight , these are very nice rifles even if not the most pleasant looking , they clean up well and represent a very real step forward in the no1 rifles , 

i had both of these versions once , they went to a young collector just getting started a good number of years ago along with my indian 303 version , i do miss them from time to time , i think you made a good purchase , you will enjoy this , 

the indians were equipped with no1 machinery when their factories were set up the pakistanis got the no4 equipment , the indians have a great history in the bayonets as well , a lot to collct in these areas , 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 08 2017 at 6:17pm
A square 10.
 
Thanks for the response.  I suspected that was the difference with between the two but was not sure.  I don't see anyway around having to remove the black paint, it is clogging the sight mechanism and covers all of the screws and connectors.  Given the large amount of cosmoline under the rear hand guard, the rifle needs a good cleaning and the wood needs some care on the inside.  If the metal looks good, I will probably leave it that way.  Funny and probably heresy for a military rifle but Cerakote black may be close to authentic.
 
 
One more question.  What was the standard bayonet for the 2A and 2A1?  was it the long 1907 pattern or the shortened version the Indians developed for the Mk III? 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 09 2017 at 4:47pm
all of those bayonets would be OK , but the more correct versions of these for the 2A &2A1 are the 12" late ones with the squared pommels and parallel grip scale edges made at GRI , RFI , NWR MIL & JU ,  they came in both a mkII*  fullered and mkII un-fullered version as well as with and without the false edge , but again any of the shortened [to 12"] or made as 12" will be just fine on this , the full length will also fit these just fine , 

i had one of each but they went with the rifles as did my long RFI version went with my ishy 303 all too many years ago , i had a shortened long version that went with the RFI 410 i had , 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 8:22am
Thanks for the advice.  I found an RFI for sale.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 1:43pm
Some pictures.  One of the 2A,  One with the 2A and my 1918 BSA MIII* and a close up of the action showing the crack and repair work on the 2A


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 10 2017 at 5:17pm
nice looking rifles , you did well i think , you will be happy with these - buy some surplus ammo and enjoy , 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 11 2017 at 9:16am
Whats the red stripe indicate?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:52pm
thats a stock repair not a red stripe 


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 5:01pm
The Indian's did some of the best stock repairs. They never wasted wood, if it could be repaired they did and they could splice in some amazing stuff. That "stripe" is an example of Indian woodwork.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 8:50am
Wow!

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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 2:56pm
Correct about the stock repair.  It was put in to stop the crack.   I will need some advice about the stock repair and will post some pictures later in the week.  While the metal is all good, having grease sit in the stock for 60 years is not so good.  I have been cleaning with alcohol and the exterior wood is cleaning up very well.  
The fore stock inside wood especially around the front guard trigger screw fore end color has broken down so that the horizontal brass pin/screw just behind the collar is clearly visible.  Some of the channels above the trigger also have years of hardened grease.
 
The question would be is it practical/worthwhile to build up the wood.  I could use my MIII* as a pattern or just order a replacement fore stock.  .308 Ishapores are available.   The rest of the fore stock is good as are the other 3 components.  Once I get them clean, I will let them dry out from the alcohol and start to apply oil.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 15 2017 at 7:08am
After allowing the stock to dry, the rear of the fore stock is ok, I still have to clean off some gunk.  I am thinking of seeing if my amateur wood working friend can cut some wood to fit over the pin to the rear of the trigger guard screw collet. 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 16 2017 at 7:32pm
wow - i mean WOW , that is a project rifle if those photos are indicative of the rest , im not sure i would bite that off so im giving you a very high HIGH FIVE on this one 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 17 2017 at 5:20am
The other three stock sections are in good shape as is everything forward of the collet area.  The area around the collet is the worst.  The very rear has some minor insect damage but now there are just a few surface lines.  The wood itself looks to be solid. 
An Ishapore 7.62 fore stock can be had relatively cheaply so I am not incurring long term risk to try to salvage this. 
After doing some consulting with a  friend who has done some restorations, I will build up the area around the collet with some glass bedding. 


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 17 2017 at 8:33am
Just my tuppence worth.

Chris, just about anything is repairable, including your fore stock.

The areas where you have damage and decay are quite critical. 
I have never been a fan of building things up with epoxy. I restore older Victorian Metfords and Enfields. Much of my refurbishing is removing the 'fixes' of previous owners. 
Epoxy might be quick and easy, but in certain applications, it just doesn't last. There is a reason that the wood broke, cracked, chipped, rotted. Your stock has problems that caused it to end up in this condition. The stock has already been repaired at the arsenal once with that brass screw rod, it has broken down and drastic measures are now needed.

An armourer would cut  the entire damaged areas out and graft in new wood for permanent repairs as good as new. Anybody with a modicum of woodworking skills can do the same. Problem is that it takes time and trial and error to get it right. I've been repairing stocks for years and I still screw up and have to rework my repair or start again. 
The repairs on your stock are perhaps something that one might have difficulty doing right the first time with a one off. I have no idea as to your woodworking skills, but this stock will be tricky.

If replacement parts are available, I would go that route. If you want just a wall hanger, then go at her with the resin and blob away. If you want to shoot the thing and have it perform well, put a decent replacement stock on it. 

Replacing a fore stock isn't just a bolt on fix, there is a defined technique to stocking up to a Lee Enfield action. 

I dont mean to seem to be negative, in fact, I encourage you to have a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, go to plan B, replace it. Lots of info on the net. Lots of people to help and guide.




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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 18 2017 at 5:46am
ChrisD. That's sound advice from Englishman. I you check out some of his previous projects; you'll see he knows what his talking about. if it was my project; I'd probably locate a good used stock and set it up properly to get it shooting. Then turn my attention to the original and have a go at a proper repair. 
Hopefully both the result and the experience would be worthwhile!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 18 2017 at 11:28am
Thanks
 
I will take your advice and go with plan B.  I will put this stock away for a couple of years when I have time on my hands to attempt the detailed wood work.
 
Chris


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 24 2017 at 12:28pm
The new fore stock came in and it will require some fitting.  I have been looking at other posts and understand to take it slow and use hand files taking off a little at a time.  I have a new guard screw bushing to install on the stock.  One question:  The wood is unfinished. Should I work on the dry wood or do a few weeks of rubbing the stock with oil before making the trims?
 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 25 2017 at 5:46pm
I figured I could not waste the weekend. I had a 1/2 pint of Milky paint pure tung oil left from refinishing a M1C Garand last year so I started the tung oil protocol with a 75% mineral spirits/25% tung oil.  7 days working up to a 50/50 mix. Then once a week for a month.  May not be correct for the Indian Army but the Indian wood look great with one application.   I will be sending the metal parts off to get a black cerakote finish as close as possible to the indian paint.  Gives me plenty of time to do a 10 coat finish on the wood and then let it sit for a month to cure.  Also picked up a set of wood files, so when the metal comes back I can start fitting it.  I will use the old stock as a template. 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 26 2017 at 9:35am
I'd stop refinishing & do any wood trimming & fitting first.
Its a round & round in ever decreasing circles thing & at some point you may well be working on finished areas.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: November 26 2017 at 3:33pm
Taking your advice.  It appears the draws are long.   Looking down through the magazine catch channel there is several tenths of an inch overhang.  I will file a bit at a time maintaining angle on the draws.
 
 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 26 2017 at 3:46pm
Yes! Sneak up on it, its easier to fix if you don't remove too  much.

Don't forget to check washer (pillar spacing) & so on as well.

Its not a "fix one thing first then fix everything else later" type of deal. As the draws fit better the bore & action will shift, so go over & check that, check the pillar in front of the magazine, & the forend bedding, fix that, then come back to the draws.

Each time you "complete the circuit" the adjustments get finer.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: December 10 2017 at 6:32am
I have not had time to fit the fore stock but I have been slowly taking the rifle action apart to clean out all of the this black paint that is in every working area.  I am going to get the rifle action refinished I finally got the safety spring screw off and the safety spring.    The rest is a challenge.  There is a bunch of crude in the mechanism.  Is there a way to get the rest off? 
Pretty much given up on removing the trigger pin. it looks like it was peened in from both sides.  Right now taking the backsight apart.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 10 2017 at 7:45am
That will depend a bit on the exact nature of he crud.
Hard, dried grease, soak in WD-40, Paint, either paint stripper or sand blasting.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: December 10 2017 at 10:24am
Thanks.  A paint remover followed by alcohol soak did the trick.  That Indian black paint soaks in everywhere.
 
 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: December 16 2017 at 1:04pm
A couple of questions:  I did complete the fore stock fitting, shaving off both the draws and around the chamber.  It fits now and is tight enough that it takes a couple of soft hits to get it off.
 
I screwed up trying to fit it at about 98% done. It was too tight at the very bottom of the draws.  It now has a small separation behind the draws (just above the pen in the picture).  Is this repairable? It is seems to be an area that can be glued easily. 
 
I have been disassembling the rifle action as I will send it off for refinishing.  I have taken the backlight mechanism off so I can clean out all of the black paint.  
Question.  The leaf spring is not coming off after the removal of the screw.  I suspect it is glued to the housing with paint as I have not seen any reference to it be secured other than by the screw.    Is that correct?  I have a replacement leaf spring if taking this one off requires force.  They are going to have to drill the trigger pin out as it is not coming out even with a pin pusher.  I have a replacement on hand.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: December 16 2017 at 8:49pm
I am not even touching your questions because first you need to clean up those draws. That should be square with the area of the receiver. In that current condition you WILL turn that foreend into matchsticks inside of 10 rounds. I say this from experience. Clean the draws up properly and then go from there.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 1:33pm
Things have been busy and it took a while to completely disassemble the 2A.  After getting it apart except for the trigger (both sides of the pin were peened) I took it to have it Cerekoted.  Not quite authentic but it is black paint and I can actually work some of the parts like the sights.  Also now one can see the SN and all of the stampings.  Most will eventually be under wood but I should not have to worry about corrosion in unseen places.  Now I have to pull out all of my pictures and make sure I get all of the screws lined up.


Posted By: Oldhand
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 2:01pm
I read you had a recommendation to get some surplus ammo. Stay away from the Indian. I had purchased a small amount and it was fine. Bought 500 rounds at a gun show and blew off my extractor. there was as much as 20 grains variance from she!! to she!!. Had to pull and reload all the ammo. Oldhand


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 2:33pm
Roger.  From what I have read, no steel case (don't have any or want any)  and try to stick to milspec as the commercial brass may expand and make extraction difficult.  I have a good supply of M80 both Federal and PPU as I have a M14 clone so this should get a steady diet of NATO standard military ammo.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 2:43pm
I know nothing about these Ishapore rifles. Can they be good shooters?


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 3:59pm
I hope to find out.  Various reviews out there.  Most of the issues deal with ammo selection.  I intend for this one to be a shooter, I wanted a MILSURP bolt action in 7.62x51 and the 2A/2A1 are the most common.  The combination of being a reserve rifle and in this case, the damaged fore stock led to this rifle gauging at zero muzzle wear.  Besides it looks good with my SMLE and my No4MK1.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 4:28pm
I suspect a load data for NATO 7.62 (not Win. .308)is available. Not ever having had much to do with the round, I learned from this site there is quite a large difference in performance. Win 308 loads are far stouter, and if memory serves me, the Ishapore, on an Enfield action, should be reloaded to the NATO specs. Members, please correct me if I'm mistaken.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 16 2018 at 5:58pm
"..I know nothing about these Ishapore rifles. Can they be good shooters?.."

absolutely , it might take some effort and TLC to get them there but they are fine rifles , mine shot well and were quite nice looking when i parted company with them , 


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 4:58pm
It is together.  I do have a question for the experts as I probably have some stock work to do.  If I tighten the front Trigger guard screw as tight as it can go,  (about 9 turns) the trigger is single stage and very mushy.  If I tighten it 7 full turns, it is a two stage pull. At about 6 turns, it is a very nice double stage trigger.   i did not do any wood removal from the trigger guard area.  I suspect I am going to have to build it up a bit to get an even and tight draw while maintaining the trigger guard to receiver angles.   One other option is that I need to shift the fore end collar down a bit. I have it recessed from the wood but perhaps too much.
 
 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 23 2018 at 6:35pm
and there ya go , its a fine looking example to be sure , kinda looks like it just left the factory , 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 24 2018 at 3:12pm
Its supposed to be a "controlled crush fit", what that means is the wood is clamped firmly between top & bottom metal, but stopped before its excessive by the collar. A little shy with a 2-stage pull is the goal with the Big bolt in front of the magazine TIGHT!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: March 27 2018 at 7:33pm
A quick update after a range day Sunday.   The rifle works well.  a proper two stage trigger at 6.5lbs and the black finish makes the sights stand out.
 
1st group (after the first  head down in case if it blows up shot) grouped about 2" low 3 inches right.  I used the sight tool and brought it in line.   However at 50 yards while on line the rounds were very low.
 
As 7.62 should be close at 25 and 200, I decided to swap out the front sight going from -30 to -45.  So will start the process again at the next range day.   That should bring it up enough so that I can eyeball the adjustments at 100 and 200 yds.
 
a few failures to feed.  I understand that 7.62 mags need a bit of tuning to get them just right so a project.
 
One question on outer band adjustments.  If too tight can that affect the point of impact? I had it a bit tight and have now reduced by a couple of turns.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:16pm
Just an update.  I finally have it zeroed.  Took me several front post changes and it is now using the lowest LE front post available. As for windage, it is at the point where it is a little to the right but if i put the tool on and think about adjusting it will be to the left.  So just a little aim offset.   The local private shooting club runs a series of World War 1 fun shoots (200 yds, 20 rounds with 3 spotters) with battle themes so for ANZAC day I took the 2A out.  Initially I over compensated but when I just trusted the sights, it was fine.   The black Cerekote really helps find the sight picture.  I have now put about a 100 rounds through it.  Later this summer I will take it apart and see how well my woodwork has been.  Any pointers for looking for an improper fit?  


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:52pm
The spring loaded screw should be tight. The spring is supposed to make controlled changes to barrel harmonics for varying loads.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)



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