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It has a pointy end...

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Bayonets
Forum Description: General discussion about bayonets for the Enfield rifles
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8622
Printed Date: November 24 2017 at 5:58pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: It has a pointy end...
Posted By: Goosic
Subject: It has a pointy end...
Date Posted: November 11 2017 at 5:00pm
I have a No4 MkI bayonet. Found it at a pawn shop for ten bucks. I have been informed that this particular bayonet is as rare as Teddy Bear poo.
I have two MkII bayonets,one from Savage and three No9 Mk1 bayonets. I was under the assumption that the blade bayonets were the sought after ones. Why is this Mk1 considered rare?



Replies:
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 11 2017 at 7:57pm
Very hard to make and very time consuming to make.

Let's not even talk about the cost.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 6:20am
Wasn't there some deal banning cruciform bayonets?
I know they were a low volume product.


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PitBull, spawn of Rottie!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 1:24pm
From what I understand the cruciform bayonets were deemed to be a violation of the Geneve Accords as the wounds produced were deemed inhumane to modern warfare. It's along those lines. I don't imagine getting stabbed with basically a giant pole barn nail is any better, but I guess there are limits to how death is dealt out.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:02pm
They were only made by the Singer company between the late 1941 and early 1942; before the cost cutting did away with the machining for the cruciform. They made around 70,000 of them I believe; which is not that many when you consider a total of around 5,000,000 spike bayonets in total.
For ten bucks it's a steal! they sell for over 200 pounds in the UK; compared to 20 pounds for an ordinary MkII.
It has all the correct markings:
 G "crown" R
No4Mk1
SM.

The No4 Mk1 is the version of the bayonet; (even though it fits the No4Mk1 rifle)
G R is George Rex (king George)
SM is Singer Manufacturing.
It has probably got either 41 or 42 stamped on the release button. Have a look!



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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:42pm
The Geneva convention of 1864 was to do with the treatment of prisoners of war, partially because the Brits had a big habit of not taking prisoners.

Perhaps you were thinking of the Hague convention of 1907 that banned the use of certain weapons?

This cruciform bayonet was introduced long after the regulation was in place. As I understand the main driving force behind moving away from a cruciform bayonet was cost and simplified manufacture as production needed to ramp up quickly for WWII. 

The 1931 spec for the bayonet was the ability to penetrate a German wool overcoat. For that, a plain spike works just as well as the cruciform and better than a blade.

If I am not mistaken, the cruciform spike appeared with the No.1 Mk.VI, which in effect was the prototype for the No.4 rifle.  The No.4 Mk.I stamping on the socket and scabbard chape refer to the Mark of the  bayonet, not the rifle. Mk.I was cruciform, Mk.II was a plain spike.

So although not made in the huge quantities like that of the Mk.II, cruciform spike bayonets are not that rare. They are certainly getting harder to find. Consequently the nicer ones sell at a premium. They are worth enough money that they are worth faking and fakes are out there.

A fake cruciform is just a plain spike modified with four cuts on a milling machine. But the markings are wrong and the tip shape is different. Not hard to spot if you have seen an original.






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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 2:47pm
If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:25pm
ZED.
It must have been repaired. The button has the Savage Square S on it. All in all,it is an original though.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 4:47pm
thats a great example , its in much nicer condition than most ive seen , the one i own , and even some shown in reference books as examples , 

these went thru a number of configurations as no1 mkIIs , then Model A & B in the 20s and early 30s made at ROF Enfield  trials no2 mkI in 31 , both the rifle and bayonet became no4 mkI in spring of 31 , 
in 33 Enfield made trials no4 mkI so there are some out there marked with the entwined ED , the war inspired added mfgrg at numerous locations and singer was already making parts was awarded the only commercial contract for mkI spikes in 41 , the one piece mkI was declared 'obsolete' the same time the contract was awarded , singer was involved in early mkII development and production as well , 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 12 2017 at 10:08pm
I'm never getting rid of this bayonet but, does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 3:01am
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.
 
Are you sure it wasn't a German in a sheep's overcoat?


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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 7:17am
Originally posted by Stanforth Stanforth wrote:

Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

If I remember correctly the bayonet where tested on a sheep in a German overcoat.

 
Are you sure it wasn't a German in a sheep's overcoat?


Maybe, if Hoadie was doing the testing.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 4:45pm
"does having a release button from a Savage greatly affect the collectable value of it?"

to a collector - yes , there is no getting around that if true and it probably would affect value in cash as well to those that need the perfect ones , in my mind not so much as its a righteous example of a singer made mkI and fine for my accumulation and a lot of others , i guess i would want to be certain before i lept to a conclusion , is the S in a square or something ? 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 13 2017 at 5:07pm
Yes it is a square S inside a square.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 4:25am
It's easy enough to swap the release button; but you may have a problem finding one with the 41 or 42 stamp. Although no mark would probably be better than the Savage "S".


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 4:53am
I have a blade bayonet with no markings on the button that I'd have no issues with doing a swap out on. How do you remove the button please. I've been wondering how to do this anyways.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 12:05pm
I figured out how to do the button swap. Pretty simple swap once you figure it out,and having the plunger and spring shoot across the kitchen
My cat was on both items quicker than you could blink.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 12:10pm
Yes it's a bit of a surprise first time around! Thumbs Up

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 1:53pm
OK. I just tried.

Please share how to get the friggin thing out! :)


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 2:00pm
I took a punch the same diameter as the hole in the button and pushed in until the plunger disengaged itself from the button and then I turned the button up and out with the punch still inside the button. I put a small shop rag over the bayonet to keep the plunger and spring from flying across the kitchen like the first attempt.


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 2:15pm
Ah ha! That's how it releases. Mine must be seized or gummed up.

It has one of those Jeezus springs inside. That is where one removes a pin or screw and.. Jeezus!......

Tech tip:- Don't mess with Jeezus springs and small parts in a room fitted with wall to wall shag pile carpet!




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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 3:04pm
Thanks for that tutorial, Goosic!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 3:33pm
ZED had alot to do with me attempting that in the first place. I knew it had something to do with the hole in the button,and when I pushed the punch in I felt the plunger keep moving after the button stopped.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 14 2017 at 8:25pm
ive never tried that - i think unless it becomes real important ill hold off - glad it worked for you tho 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 15 2017 at 4:10am
Wear safety glasses! the spring is quite strong.
It's a bit of a struggle to get it all back in as well.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 16 2017 at 7:29pm
i would suspect that , i think ill refrain from attempting this till neccessary , 



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