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.22 Enfield

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8635
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 11:55am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: .22 Enfield
Posted By: pilgrimVII
Subject: .22 Enfield
Date Posted: November 23 2017 at 7:08pm
Hey everyone
I recently came into a few Enfield rifles and this is the one I'm most confused about. seeing if anyone can help.
it is a .22 marked as but seems to be a early Enfield has a pop up sight on the receiver but not up on the stock. but numbers on the bolt ,barrel and stock match.
I will add pictures below.
actually having problems uploading pictures. will try to put a link in here

https://www.flickr.com/gp/148889936@N06/TYRn01" rel="nofollow - https://www.flickr.com/gp/148889936@N06/TYRn01



Replies:
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 4:17am
It was a .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield that has been converted to .22 which is a No2MkIV* . As seen stamped on the wrist.
it's a single shot trainer and the magazine well is usually empty (platform and spring removed) to collect the ejected cases. Very handy when at the range; you can just tip the empties straight in the bin.
They are great rifles; generally quite accurate and fun to shoot.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 6:43am
What you called the "pop up sight" is the rear volley sight aperture. It was on early Mk III rifles and was phased out later on.


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 8:24am
Interesting history.

At some point, your rifle was inspected and the barrel bore was found to be worn. Not worn out, but below the standard of a first line weapon. Used rifles in service were supposed to have at least 60-80% (??) of barrel life left in them to pass inspection. Your barrel was found to be below par but still a useable rifle, so it was downgraded to 'For Emergency use', denoted by the EY on the barrel nocks form.

Later on, the EY was cancelled and it was downgraded again, but this time to Drill Purpose. This meant that it was used for training and was not part of the live fire rifle inspection and maintenance program. DP was usually the last tour of duty for a service rifle. However, this Drill Purpose rifle was then converted by Parker Hale who cancelled the DP marking and fitted the .22 liner to the barrel and reworked the bolt.

These are great fun to shoot. You look to have a nice one.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 8:52am
I was wondering if the PH meant it was converted by Parker Hale. All those marks certainly make for an interesting piece.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 9:11am
This is a fairly standard progression for the older more worn guns.
Quite a lot were downgraded then revamped in various ways into .22 trainers.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 11:42am
I think it's got more stamps than our local Post OfficeLOL

There's a lot of history in that rifle. Well worth looking after.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 4:08pm
englishman gave you the senario i was going to throw out as well , good solid platform converted by one of the best , nice trainer , you cannot go wrong having at least one , they generally shoot quite well , 


Posted By: pilgrimVII
Date Posted: November 27 2017 at 5:14pm
thanks for the help guys!
I did track some of that info down. but not all.
the bore looks super clean. so I'll have to take it out shooting one of these days.
I was disappointed not getting to shoot 303.
but I also got a Ishapore so maybe the price with 22 and 308 will even itself out.

are these worth anything?


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 28 2017 at 6:21am

The .22 always sold at a premium, the rim fire cartridge being a popular and very practical caliber.

Trainers are not as common as the 303 and there is a strong demand amongst collectors and shooters alike. They generally command higher prices than their 303 parents.




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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 28 2017 at 9:14am
I've seen the .22 trainers round here priced for $1,000~1200 on the rare occasion you find one.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 28 2017 at 4:58pm
dittos , they go for the premium values , they are fun and so interesting in that the early ones were conversions of service rifles , save for the later no4 type versions that were made as what they are , i have a hole in my collection for one of the long versions [not shortened for the SMLE trainer] one day i will get lucky and come upon it , 

i have a converted MLM mkII that was shortened to the Cond II in 1912 , a no1 mkIII converted no2 mkIV [no star - it has its volleys] converted in the 21-26 period , a 1945 longbranch purpose made Cno7 mkI , and a 1944 Cooey Mod 82 Trainer that was a war version of one of their popular civilian models , still looking for the right mosberg lend lease trainer , 
i also have a webley mkVI with 22cal conversion and a webley mkIV purpose made 22cal , 

also have a couple real US trainers , winchester windermusket , Springfield Mod 1922 and highstandard HD military , 
i have a few faux trainers as well savage NRA 19 [m1903] Stevens 87M [m1garand] colt M16 with conversion bolt and a ruger carbine rebuilt to simulate the m1carbine and a number of years ago i went in on a group buy for a conversion unit for my belgian FN FAL , 




Posted By: pilgrimVII
Date Posted: November 28 2017 at 6:32pm
what do you mean by shortened? the rifle itself?
if so this rifle is definitely full length. weighs a ton. maybe 6 inches or more longer than the Ishapore I have.
I do see the magazine is empty with 22 stamped on the bottom.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 5:09am
Before the SMLE there was an earlier version which was longer, called the Long Lee.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 5:39am
I also note that the rifle has been marked on the top of the receiver ring with M.192/1948. This is a British Ministry of Supply wartime contractor code, M192 being the PH Arms Co.. 
The rifle would have had a complete and thorough overhaul (in effect a Factory Thorough Rebuild) in 1948, to be as good as new.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: pilgrimVII
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 6:15am
what's the difference in a shtle like I have and a SMLE?


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 8:35am
Nothing, its just a different way of labeling it.

ShtLE (Short magazine Lee Enfield) Vs. S.M.L.E. (Short Magazine Lee Enfield.)
BSA marked them that way.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 1:18pm
Yes, the main difference is semantics. My take on it doesn't necessarily follow the timelines of which came first, one or the other. There is a bit of a story and history to it, but the Reader's Digest version is;-

The first Lee Enfield in 1896 was called a Magazine Lee Enfield and had a barrel 30 inches long. Its designation was the MLE.

It was superseded in 1903 with a rifle that had a lighter and shorter barrel of 25 inches long. It was called a Short Magazine Lee Enfield, its designation was the SMLE.
 
In common parlance to differentiate between the long and the short rifle, the MLE became known as the long Lee Enfield and the new shorter one became known as the short Lee Enfield. 

The Short Lee Enfield designation was the Sht.LE. So as if that was not confusing enough, another later abbreviation in 1925, the Sht.LE Mk.III was redesignated as the No.1 Rifle Mk.III.

So if you had the three rifles, a Sht.LE Mk.III, a SMLE Mk.III, and a No.1 Mk.III, you would have three of the same thing. Different factories and different countries marked theirs with the different designations at different times.

There! As clear as mud, ain't it?


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 29 2017 at 2:28pm
& Squaddies, being squaddies, immediately bastardized the terms to "sh*tley" or "Smellie". Its an odd British trait we only abuse the things we really like!
Wacko


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 9:49am
My Grandfather used to call Enfield's smiles.

Stick a German with the bayonet and get a smile every time. I think the smile was on my Grandfather's Canadian face.



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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 10:09am
Could be! I had one of them as well he ended up an RSM in the 11Th Gloucesters after he move to Blighty.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 11:28am
now you have the rifle; you'll need one of these to slip on the end!

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 1:43pm
I'm looking.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 30 2017 at 7:16pm
great synpsis simon , it says it all in less words than many of us might have used and uncomplicates the complicated , those of us that have been collecting[loving] these old roifles for years , decades , a lifetime understand , it is what complicates them for a novice , 
just that change to make all early rifles no1s was a big jump and is complicated alone as i tend to think only the SMLE fit that , i have had some tell me the longer rifles [shortened] fit it as well i disagree but im not the gurue here , 

one thing for certain , these are interesting and collectors that go here are in a realm that offers lots of options and a lifetime of research , well worth traveling the road if you like these fantastic rifles , i will add that simon has knowledge well back from the advent of the SMLE that most collectors could use if they go that direction , 



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