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Problems shooting Fazakerly No 4 MkI

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Darreld Walton View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 04 2017 at 7:53am
Hi all, took my 6/43 Fazakerly No 4 Mk I to the range last weekend, shooting new production PPU 174 gr. BT ammunition (first firing of cartridges).  First five rounds fired were a disappointment, to say the least.  At 100 yards, all five bullets entered the target sideways, or "keyholed".  Tried a few more, but exactly the same results.  This was the only ammunition I had on hand.  The PPU 174's seemed to shoot quite well in my No. 1***, and my 1944 produced Maltby No. 4.
The Fazakerly is a "two groove" barrel, quite different than my Remington and Smith Corona produced WWII M1903A3 barrels, as well as the Johnson Arms produced replacement barrels for the M1917 US Rifles, in that the British produced two groove uses two very wide lands, with two narrow grooves, and quite rounded shoulders, where in the US produced barrels, the lands and grooves are nearly equal in width, the shoulders quite 'sharp'. 
It was recommended to me that I thoroughly clean the barrel, and at first, I thought I'd done just that, but, using a good, quality bore solvent, properly sized bronze brush, followed by swabbing with brush wrapped with cotton muslin patches, I discovered that my bore was very filthy!  The longer I brush and swab, the more junk I get out of it, and the better the appearance of the grooves.  
I've yet to get it out to the bench again to see how it'll perform, especially with some fresh handloads using 150 and 170 gr. Hornady flat base .312 diameter bullets.  Will advise when that happens.  In the meantime, has anyone else experienced the keyholing issue with their rifles, or with the PPU ammunition?
Sorry to say that I've yet been able to find my micrometer or caliper since moving, so, I'm not able, at the moment, to accurately measure the diameter of the PPU bullets.  
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Zed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2017 at 1:05pm
The PPU bullets work well in my No4 Mk1/2 Faz' and my No1MkIII* BSA. However both rifles have good barrels.
I have heard of boat tail bullets causing keyhole impacts. It could be wear/erosion at the start of the rifling, or at the muzzle. Flat base bullets should be better.
I don't have any personal experience of the two groove barrels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2017 at 2:03pm
The 2-groove barrel & boat tails is a well known disaster. It seems worse with worn barrels, but its a complete crap shoot. I had 2 Savage 2-groove rifles one loved boat tails the other shot patterns, not groups & yes many were sideways.
Try some FB bullets like the Remington 180 gr ones they're really close to the "real" Mk 7 bullet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pedro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2017 at 5:14pm
A friend has a No5 rifle that tends to keyhole ammunition and is generally wildly inaccurate. As yet, he has only tried S&B factory ammo. But we've got some PPU factory ammunition to try and will try some home loads with PPU 174gr BT bullets. His barrel doesn't look that bad he tells me, so we'll just try a few things, see how it goes.
 
Probably not a great deal of help to you, except to tell you there are other Enfields that do it. I don't know, but I would think No5's aren't two grooves though, or are they? 
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Darreld Walton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darreld Walton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2017 at 10:56pm
Thanks for the replies, fella's!  As mentioned, my other two rifles gobble these rounds up like a hog at the trough, so instead of breaking them down and reloading for the 7.62X54R, I'll continue using them in the other two Enfields.
I bought 100 rounds of the PPU for $14.95 per twenty and a bit of shipping from Palmetto State Armory.  I see that Midway has the component brass available, so that's the way I'll likely go for now.
I do have a further question, though, about the MkVII cartridge.  For some reason, I had it in my head that it was loaded with a BT bullet, but is it a flat base?  If so, I'm wondering if there's a bit of obturation at the base upon firing, much like a Minie' ball?  I see that Midway also has a bit of the MkVII ammunition available, both Brit and Pakistani produced.  Might have to acquire some of that, if for nothing else than making holes in the hillside with, but it'd be interesting to see what it does in the Faz two groove.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andre-Richard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 2:30am
I bought PPU FMJ (BT) in bulk (500). Weight went from 171 to 175 g, so I weight-sorted them in lots. Big surprise, my No4MkI* shot them along (<2 MOA) with the Sierra MK's at 1/3 the cost ! My rifle is a Savage 1943, FTR'd by Fazakerley in 1953 (new barrel & stock). My 4-groove barrel shoots both BT/flat base bullets without problems but I've heard/read (not verified) that a 2-groove barrel feels better with flat bases...

Andre
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 5:18am
The Mk7 was a flat base, the Mk8z was a rebated boat tail.
I'd be cautious with that Midway surplus POF it has a terrible reputation.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andre-Richard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 5:29am
I was presented by about 100+ surplus .303 military ammo, anno 1942-43. Not willing to shoot corrosive primers + erosive cordite in my pristine barrel, I took the rounds apart to salvage the projectiles. Weight variance was considerable (same as PPU's), so I sorted them out by lots too. I'll try them out soon at the range.
Andre
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 5:46am
I've experienced the Packistani mil-srp ammo @ Rhino's.
I have nothing good to say about it.
Nasty stuff.
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 7:51am
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

I've experienced the Packistani mil-srp ammo @ Rhino's.
I have nothing good to say about it.
Nasty stuff.


And he is literally meaning nasty tasting !!!  the wind was blowing back in our faces when we shot some of that junk!!! the smoke tastes horrible !!!

Oh and the 9mm SMG ammo is dirtier than a Diesel exhaust !!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 8:27am
The only Flat base factory FMJ is  S&B   which is ok if you don't plan on reloading them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 12:14pm
Are you sure the Sellier Bellot factory stuff is flat base? 
Only I bought 500 S&B 180 grain ogive's for my reloading and they are boat tail. But they are different to the Sierra's; in the fact that the base shows the lead in the centre and the pointed end is closed; where as the Sierra's have a full copper base and a very small hole in the point. 
I suspect the S&B bullets may bump up better in a worn barrel. 
It must be said that the weight tolerance on the S&B's was horrid!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 2:47pm
As many on this forum know - I have nothing good to say about S & B factory loads, either.

Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2017 at 3:32pm
Speer Hot-Cor makes FB-SP w/jacketed base .311" projectiles in 150 and 180 grains. Mated to good brass they function very well in 2-groove barrels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 6:18pm
FWIW, My Maltby  2-groove shoots well with flat -base but shoots sideways with boat-tails.  
 
Sort of to be expected quite commonly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andre-Richard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2017 at 9:34am
I went to the range yesterday and test-fired my (weight sorted) salvaged military bullets. I loaded them with 39.0 g of N140 (1 g less than my std. load with BT bullets.) Well, the flat base shot to POA but grouped twice as large as compared with the SMK and PPU weight sorted (both BT). I'll have another pass, upping the charge to 40.0 g.
Andre
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