Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Info for New Enfield Owners
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - L42A1/Enforcer/Envoy????
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


L42A1/Enforcer/Envoy????

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: L42A1/Enforcer/Envoy????
    Posted: June 06 2010 at 6:38am

First post on this site. Hello!

I've been going to the same gun dealer for a number of years and a pattern has started to develop. It has to be unusual, it has to have a very heavy barrel and ithas to be capable of being accurate.
 
My first purchase was a Brno CZ with a bull barrel, then came an old, experimental custom built Pybus.  Then, about 4 months ago my dealer called me to say that an unissued Lee Enfield 7.62 'sniper' rifle was coming up for auction and was I interested.
 
Well now I've bought it! It appears almost new. It came in a case with a 4x12x40 Picar sight, two magazines, bipod and a load of old ammo.
 
On the bolt the serial number reads A19524, on the lefthand side of the receiver therenis the same serial number and 'No4 MK2, UF55.
 
The ammo has a 'crosshair' and 'L42A1 stamped into the headstock.
 
i intend to use the rifle for 500 - 1,000 yd competitions.  Can anyone shed any light on this gun?  If I came find out how to post photos I will do so later.
 
DRC
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2010 at 6:42am

Opps! sorry. Wrong heading. Isaid I was new to this.

Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 7876
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2010 at 7:45am
This has me a little confused.
"#4 Mk2, UF '55" is a Fazackerly made Lee Enfield #4 Mk II rifle from 1955, I have a similar rifle from the same UF '55 lot, but with an A 189xx serial number, very close but no cigar, but not an envoy or enforcer, it is chambered in .303 British, the classic Lee-Enfield load. There were versions of the Enfield as dedicated marksmanship rifles, the L39 & L41 but I'm not familiar with the markings these would have had on them, I'm assuming it would have been marked as L39, or L42 respectively, not #4 Mk II???

However the ammunition headstamp is for a 7.62mm NATO load (the L42A1), not to be confused with the L42A1 designation of the Envoy. The crosshair (cross in a circle) denotes NATO spec ammunition BTW. There may also be a green, or black spot (filled in circle) on the box.

Could you have a #4 Mk II rebarreled to 7.62mm? This was a popular conversion "back in the day" & was used a lot for long range (1,000 Yd) competition.

Is there a caliber marking on the barrel itself? this should clarify the chambering of your exact rifle & remove confusion. The 7.62mm barrels were a lot thicker than the original .303 barrels, but this was done to handle the higher pressure of the 7.62mm load, not for anything else.

As a hint. The Lee Enfields had wood almost all the way to the muzzle, only about the last 2" of barrel being visible, they also had a wooden covering over the top of the barrel to the same point in the length. The Envoy & Enforcer rifles had a much shorter front stock which stopped about 1/2 way along the barrel length & the top of the barrel was exposed all the way to the breech. Of course this may have been changed as part of a conversion to 7.62mm.

This is my Lee Enfield #4 Mk II.
The sight, mount & cheekpiece have been added to a stock rifle by me, but you get the idea of what a #4 Mk II looks like in .303 Brit.

PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7551
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 12:07am
i once had a charnwood conversion of 303 to 762 that looked like this one , there were a few outfits doing it 'stearling' for one and canadians  , very nice looking rifle you have 
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 3:42am
It's definately a 7.62.  The fore stock ends half way alone the heaxy black painted barrel. It did come with a Picar sight but this had a single post design (Great if you wanted to shoot a man but not very good for targets!).
 
I have some photos, just need to find a way of up loading them.
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 3:46am
Can not do too much as, due to my wife seeing a rat on the bird feeder I am now detailed with sitting in the kitchen with a loaded .22, silenced rifle on rat watch!!!!!!
 
The things we do for love!Ermm
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 4:28am
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 7876
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 6:15am
Let me see if I can help.(I'm rat-free at the moment & Mrs Shamu isn't here to add to the honeydo list).Thumbs Up
That's definitely a 7.62mm rifle. The magazine, barrel & so on are not .303!
The forestock & buttstock are Envoy/Enforcer-looking as well. The Enfields had the lower profile butt that needed to have a bolt-on cheek-piece added to get a good weld with a scope mounted. (as the pic of my Enfield shows). & the front ends were fitted with handguards & full length, not anything like yours.

If it wasn't for the "#4 Mk2" on the receiver I'd swear it was a real envoy! That & the so similar serial number to my #4 have me bewildered.

As it is I'm going to ask around a bit & see what I can find out. Maybe the Envoy/Enforcers were made or upgraded from #4 Mk2 actions?????Confused


PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 7876
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2010 at 10:09pm
I checked with a couple of very reliable sources who own Envoy & Enforcer rifles.
Every one ever made was marked in one of two styles, one in a flat oval milled away on the left hand receiver wall,  the other electro-etched into the surface of the wall itself. They were all identified as either Envoys, or Enforcers with a "patent applied for" marking & a 7.62mm id as well.

On the top of the barrel, directly behind the dovetail for the front sight there was a "patent applied for" marking in addition to the receiver marking.

Based on that information I'm guessing you have a .303 #4 Mk2 that was turned into a 7.62mm Enforcer/Envoy "clone", "homage" or "copy", not an actual Enforcer or Envoy rifle per se.

Links to the supplied pics.
I guess your dealer was accurate when he described the rifle as an Enfield, not an Enforcer?
A lot of these are excellent shooters BTW, so if you got it at the right price for a 7.62 converted Faz #4 then you should be fine.Beer

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL605/2357344/9504066/134777740.jpg

 

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL605/2357344/9504066/134777738.jpg

 

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL605/2357344/10637379/153251998.jpg

 

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL605/2357344/7671463/382360389.jpg

 

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t219/Alan_de_Enfield/EnforcerAction3.jpg

 

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t219/Alan_de_Enfield/Copy_of_enforcer111_28529.jpg

 

 


PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
Back to Top
ArcherSix View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 05 2009
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 317
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArcherSix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2010 at 2:05am
nice pics Shamu. I thought that the Envoy/Enforcer were converted from and retained the scope pads of the #4T. Learn something everyday!
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2010 at 4:11am
Hmmmmmm......Confused
 
Food for thought.  I have emailed the Royal Armouries in Leeds asking them to check their records.  They owe me a favour as I donated a rare 1215 Martini actioned BSA.  The R B Pybus 250 and the Enfield will probably end up being offered to them in the future.  I'll let you all know what I'm told.
 
As for the price.  I paid £250 for the rifle, both scopes, scope rail, bipod, case and 200 rnds of assorted millitary ammo (Inc. 20 rnds of Iraqi surplus). The dealer also had the gun sent to the Birmingham proof house as it was marked as proofed to 19 tons and had it re-proofed to 20 tons. In all not too bad a deal.
 
Thanks for the information.  I'll take the rifle to the range and let you know what it groups like.
 
Rat problem now sorted! Smile
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 7876
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2010 at 6:11am
Being in the U.S. I 'm not current with U.K. prices.
But if that was the going rate for a good converted #4 Mk2 I'd not be disappointed. My #4 Mk2 is a tack driver. Good luck with the test.
PitBull, spawn of Rottie!
Back to Top
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2010 at 9:24am
Originally posted by ArcherSix ArcherSix wrote:

nice pics Shamu. I thought that the Envoy/Enforcer were converted from and retained the scope pads of the #4T. Learn something everyday!
The Metropolitan Police armourers found that L42 rifles supplied to them under lease by the MOD were often badly degraded and many were judged unsafe to fire. Looks like some military armorers had decided to palm off a number of junkers onto the Police.
 
The story goes that the defective L42 rifles were conversions of wartime production receivers, so the Police then contracted for newly manufactured rifles on receivers rigorously tested and proven to be of the highest quality in materials and craftsmanship. The workshops assembling the Enforcers tested each and every component and turned down more parts than were accepted.
So when one is lucky enough to own an Enforcer he has the top of the line of Enfield No.4 styled actions.
 
I hope the converted rifle passes proof, but be aware that even rifles that passed proof occasionaly developed stiff actions due to warpage of bolt body or action body and were condemned without attempts to rectify the problems.
 
Unfortunately attempts to find out more about the incidences of rifles failing proof and any accidents involving converted No.4 rifles can generate extreme reactions from some supposed authorities on the Enfields.
 
Remember that while a converted rifle may handle quality ammunition well so long as the chamber is clean and free from excess lubricant, the smaller margin for error when using ammo with chamber pressures higher than that of the standard 7.62 Ball at 48,000 CUP (as high as 57,000 CUP Max Std Deviation in some cases) will make the possibility of damage due to an oily or wet chamber far more of a concern than would have been the case of the same rifle in its original .303 chambering which topped at 45,400 CUP. 
 
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2010 at 4:11am
I'm aware of some of the dangers associated with ownership of these rifles.  I intend to use it in competition and load my own ammunition.  I won't be going any where near the maximum loads in the manual. As the original rounds used a 143 gr head (Please correct if I'm wrong), I'm going to use heads of a simular weight.
 
I've already had a reply from the Royal Armouries, they are asking for photographs and are looking into the history.  I'll keep you all posted.
 
Finally. I know it isn't an Lee Enfield but if you like them I'm sure you'll like a Pybus.  I have photographed it with a Mossberg 500 12G pump just to give you some idea of it's size.
 
Back to Top
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2010 at 6:02pm
Quote
Finally. I know it isn't an Lee Enfield but if you like them I'm sure you'll like a Pybus.  I have photographed it with a Mossberg 500 12G pump just to give you some idea of it's size.
 
 
Mighty nice.
Reminds me of a custom .25-06 a friend built on a Whitworth Mauser action. He'd gotten the action dirt cheap from a dealer who'd ordered it for a customer when the customer dropped dead unexpectedly before he could pick it up.
The action was used to make a 1000 yard match rifle.
Back to Top
DRC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 06 2010
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DRC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 2:47am
I have finally got a reply from the Royal Armouries.
 
A19524 was made after 1955 at Fazackerly, some time later it was chosen to be converted to 7.62mm as a L42A1.  After conversion it then went on to have further work done to it, this included the Monte Carlo stock and was given a different designation. The rifle went to the British Army's competition team to be used as a match rifle.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.05
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.