My No5 MK1 |
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jhjfdf
Newbie Joined: December 22 2010 Location: Austria Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Posted: December 22 2010 at 4:40pm |
I bought my Jungle Carbine 2 days ago. I never owned a Enfield before so everything is pretty new to me.
I want to know in which year it was produced and who produced it. On the site http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/in2.htm it says "No5 were only produced by BSA Shirley and ROF Fazakerley, serials began with a B at the Shirley plant and an F at the Fazakerley factory." but my Enfield starts with an A (A4163). On the left side the metal(at the cartridge chamber) is marked with 303 Brit and above of that there are 2 symbols +2 numbers and 2 letter the first looks like a shield with something in it and a little N under it the second one is a shield with a roughened texture and then the numbers and letter are 10IE. I cant take photos of it with my camera its to blurred every time. On the Top of the cartridge chamber ther is a little arrow -> pointing to the shooter I hope that someone can help me. Thanks in advantage And i hope my "english" wasnt too bad. |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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The serial numbers started with the letters you mention, but were later changed. My Fazakerley built #4 serial # starts with an "A" as well so I guess your #5 is a Faz as well.
Could the numbers & letters under a shield be the letters "BNP" under a picture of a crown? That would be a commercial proof mark. (Birmingham Nitro Proof) If so there should also be a reference to a pressure in tons per square inch, IIRC 18.5. How big is the arrow? Is there a "U" round it? If the arrow is small & alone it is probably a MOD "Broad Arrow" proof mark, frequently called a "crows foot, or bird's foot", because that is what it resembles. If the arrow is longer & finer & there is a "U" surrounding it that is a South African acceptance/ownership mark, meaning your rifle was in service in South Africa at some point. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Beerhunter
Groupie Joined: May 20 2010 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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The serial number of your rifle indicates that it is early (1944) Fazackerly production. (Right after the initial FE series.)
The left side of the receiver body should be marked: No.5 Mk1 ROF(F) X/44 (Where X is the month of production.) but as these makings were electro pencilled rather faintly, they are often difficult to see. The serial number was there as well but in your case has been retrospectively stamped on the wrist. (This was common practice.) The transverse screw through the woodwork forward of the receiver means that your carbine has been reworked at some point in the past at the Indian Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI). The site that you quote is incorrect in that it doesn't tell the whole story about the serial numbers. Only the first batch of Fazackerly production started with an F and it was FE not just F on its own. |
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jhjfdf
Newbie Joined: December 22 2010 Location: Austria Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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The arrow is really small and there isnt a U around it. And its only a single N
I will get a better camera and make pictures of the receiver but there arent markings like you mentioned...i had seen these markings on the internet but my No5 dont have it. |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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the no5 rifles were only produced by BSA [assigned BB thru BM] and FAZ [assigned single letters & AA]
prduced 81,300 at BSA [from BB , BD , BE , BF , BG , BJ & BK ] 1945-1947 and 170,000 at FAZ [from A to Z & AA to AC ] 1944-47 , |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Did you check all the markings sections on the other Enfield rifles site, there are several pages broken up by type of marking? Without pics leafing through the tabs on there is probably your best bet.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Beerhunter
Groupie Joined: May 20 2010 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Plus the FE prefix used in February and March of 1944. (As I said in my earlier post.) |
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Cookie Monster
Special Member Joined: January 22 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7510 |
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The BNP also tells you it was proofed after 1954. NP was the Birmingham Nitro Proof between 1912 and 1954, Both under a crown
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mauser98nut
Groupie Joined: November 26 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Welcome!This is a good forum so you have no worries here-ask away!Looks like a good buy.Being your first is a No 5 you will expect more recoil then the other versions but nothing unmanageable!Good luck with your new toy!
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jhjfdf
Newbie Joined: December 22 2010 Location: Austria Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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I was on the range with it. This were my best 5 shots. I was shooting at 100 Meters, sitting and the weapon on a clip-on bipod at the table Ammunition was .303 brit from PMP Denel And i really love that rifle...it has no date markings on it but who cares when it shoots like that :D Some friend told me the markings on the side were from the bullet-office( dont know the english name, its were you bring the gun and they shoot it an say that they are safe to use) in the german city Ulm. And the marking on the top is the crowfeet |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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We'd call that the "Ulm Proof House".
PMP (Pretoria Metal Pressings) is South African manufacture, excellent quality stuff. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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BoltGunBarron
Newbie Joined: December 14 2021 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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The Problem: Enfield Rifles were closely monitored and recorded during manufacture. For every 999 Jungle Carbines the letter was graduated (1-999 A, 1000-1999B etc.) This is possibly the case BUT you MAY have simply misspoke stating that your serial started with an "F". You may be referring not to the SN but the left side receiver markings that should read No 5 Mk I ROF(F) or No5 MkI BSA(S) for the only two legitimate builders at Royal Ordinance Factory Fazakerley or British Small Arms, Shirly, I took the time today and I have found at least 20 unique marks over nearly every machined peice and stock, eithr letters and numbers or stamped Proof Marks. Check the bottom of your magazine for a matching serial. Because the other option is that you got a fake, a bastardized No.4 Rifle. Or JUST MAYBE, you've gotten an Austrailian or Indian build which would be most rare indeed. Savage also made Enfields but idk the markings. Pictures would be wonderful and Google Lee-Enfield No.5 MkI Markings Guide will help tremendously. Also don't assume the bolt or flash hider number is a different serial, these things are covered with markings from every person that built or proofed every single part at every individual factory and rear sights, front site pins, extractors, bold heads, and other small parts are marked. You should see a lot of "V" markings. This is the famous upside down V or Arrow that indicates something as property of the british empire. I'm an enfield builder and historian so please let me know if you have pictures and I'll be able to explain them all and provide the links to sources and a PDF of an Enfield book that's incredible better and more expansive than Ian Skinnerton's work.This is the Book for FREE! It includes a glossary of all symbols and details on every marking of every enfield along with their entire story.
https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/the-lee-enfield-rifle-egb-reynolds-1962.pdf |
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Ethan RoltGunBarron Robert
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BoltGunBarron
Newbie Joined: December 14 2021 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Yours is the 5,163rd Fazakerly No.5. Each letter of the alphabet designated a batch of 10,000 rifles. There was an initial production of 1,000 Fazakerly Einfields numbered from FE1-FE1000 before starting general production of the first 10,000 using the letter A for carbines A1-A9999 before AA then AB etc.
This book will help you with all the proof marks and anything you could ever be asked in these forums. http://https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/the-lee-enfield-rifle-egb-reynolds-1962.pdf |
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Ethan RoltGunBarron Robert
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Both of those links give a 505 error. Great info I'm sure, but do you have a current link to them for the "links" page?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Dradzk
Groupie Joined: December 09 2021 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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The reason for the error is that the links have http://https at the beginning. Copy them from the back till you get to the https and paste it into your browser. After trying that they worked for me. |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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whats up with the NO WAR photos ?
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