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No.4 that patterns like a shotgun

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Jorge in Oz View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 09 2013 at 10:51am
Hi Guys,
 
Greetings, I'm from Melbourne, Australia and new to the forum and have only posted a couple of times.
 
Now here is my query. My mate has a Longbranch No4 sporter that has at some stage being rebarrelled with an Enfield No.4 barrel. It has a Parker Hale side mount and a Bushnell Scope. Images attached.
 
 
 
He has fired about 5 different types of ammunition including 150, 174 and 180 grainers most factory ammo, handloaded 150s and factory 150gns and he has still not being able to get to group decently. The best ammo has been milsurp 174 FMJ ammo which grouped well with 3 shots but would then spread wildly. He took his time between shots and did not overheat the barrel. He even had other enfield enthusiast who had original military issued rifles and sporters looking at it. Some said it may be the barrel and some said it was the lack of pressure points in the forend stock.
 
We have tried 3 different scopes, been correctly bore sighted, mounting and scope screws have been checked and barrel has a decent bore with good rifling. Stock crews are tight. The forend stock is free floated and because its sporterised and with no pressure points this could be an issue.
 
Not sure if any of you guys have had this problem and can shed some light. It tends to shoots to the left also, not sure if this is my mate's trigger squeezing technique but others have shot it without success. Target is attached. The 3 shots on the left near the number 8 in the red ring were the 174 grn Milsurp ammo.
 
 
I myself have a Enfield No4. Sporter in 303-270 sitting in a ATI synthetic stock which is also free floated but shoots rather well as it has a Sako barrel. So I could not shed any light to my mate's problem as most Enfields I've had both sporters and full wood rifles have shot very well for a milsurp.
 
Your valuable insight would be most appreciated. 
 
Cheers
 
Jorge 
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ArcherSix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArcherSix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2013 at 11:30am
well, the first thing I'd check is the crown. If that checks out good, maybe try glassing in a pressure pad on the barrel and try that out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2013 at 1:03pm
I'm with Archer on this check the crown then try a pressure point on the forend. I ran into that on a mauser sporter some years ago.   If the barrel is came off another rifle there is also the possibility of metal fouling. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2013 at 9:33pm
I'm going all the way back to basics on this one. Try a this step-by-step apporach & see if it works for you.
TRy using a sandbag instead of the bipod & see what happens. Does the mounting screw for the bipod contact the barel inside the stock? That would be a bad thing.
 
Have you done a "bullet test" on the muzzle?
 
Give the bore the clean of a lifetime right down to base metal.
 
If that doesn't work look at the bedding around the reciever front & back end of the barrel. Tight bedding there is vital, particularly with the 2-piece Enfield stock. Check for the sleeve inside the "King Screw" between the floorplate metal & the reciever stud. the length on these is really important. You have to have tension with the screw tightened. If the sleeve is the wrong length you can tighten the screw till the cows come home but it won't pull the wood together with the floorplate & action. If you get suspicious make a shim to go between the inside of the trigger guard/floorplate & the bottom wood of the stock. Make the hole for the bolt big enough that the sleeve doesn't touch the shim.
 
If that doesn't work try the crown, you can easily do this yourself with a glass marble & valve grinding compound. Even tiny imperfections in the crown will have it patterning like a shotgun.
 
Lastly try putting shims (I like strips cut from cleaned soda cans) into the forend about 1/2" back from the tip. Add1, if it gets better try 2 & keep going till it either doesnt improve or gets worse & back off 1 layer.
 
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Jorge in Oz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jorge in Oz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2013 at 10:09am
Thanks for your responses guys.
 
Will give all of the above a go.
 
Cheers
 
Jorge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2013 at 4:46pm
It's not lack of pressure points on the barrel.    It's unlikely to be action bedding either by the look of that pattern.  It could be the barrel contacting the barrel channel.  A  business card should be able to slide between the barrel and channel freely.  

It would be worth your buddy checking his scope.  A bullet for him to try is the Highland 180gr semi- spitzer, semi-boat tail.  My two-groove Long Branch is scary accurate with them - I've never tried anything else in it.  It has a free floating barrel.   It didn't seem to matter what powder or charge I used.  I did trim off a bit of the muzzle and cut it square.  No crown, just square (it has a suppressor fitted so no crown required).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2013 at 1:17am
i was thinking of suggesting that the scope and mounts should be thoroughly checked too , then i thought it might be a bit obvious , then i was reminded of a very good shooter/hunter i know here who had exactly that problem , his scope mount was loose - he was certain he had retightened it , but , you could turn the mounting screw with fingers so no joy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2013 at 3:27am
The fitting of the woodwork is essential to consistent accuracy. The fit of the receiver to the recoil lugs, the upward pressure on the barrel etc. There is a very good book available on line by Roger Wadham, which shows methods of checking and accurizing Enfields. The Fulton's rifles all have bedded barrels, being then floated from the centre bedding forward. There various methods explained in his book. I halved the group size of my No8 after just correcting the up pressure on the barrel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jorge in Oz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2013 at 12:37pm
Thanks guys.
 
He has tried 3 different scopes and checked and rechecked the scope mount and ring screws.
 
He's taken the thing apart and I think he may be selling it for parts. It's sporterised already so I guess he is not trashing an original rifle. Sometimes you need patience and perseverence to make milsurps shoot well and he's bought a Howa in 30-06 so that will now be his deer rifle. I had a Portuguese Mauser (vergueiro) that didn't anything but the barrel cleaned and it shot MOA at 100 meters with a scout mount and 4x pistol scope. Still regret selling that rifle, so accurate.
 
Thanks for the feedback I will keep all your suggestions in mind for my No4 sporter in 303-270.
 
Cheers
 
Jorge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2013 at 2:32pm
Both No.1 and No.4 rifles normally hit to the left of center of the bore line.
Its a combination of action body flex and spindrift due to lefthand twist rifling.
How far too the left an rifle will print depends on the exact load.

Standard issue front sight bases are offset to the left to compensate.
A scope zeroed by bore sighting will normally be off by a wide margin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2013 at 2:02am
Not the only issue, but some rifles just don't like boat tailed bullets. Since the (flat based) milsurp ammo seemed to provide a better group, I'd do a test of flat based vs boat tailed bullets.

Ed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2013 at 6:58am
The issure with barrel bedding is if it's not right the results could be terrible.  Free floating may not produce the best accuracy but at least it won't be bad.  What effect would an over-size bore have?  I have several of those but have never shot them with jacketed ammo.  I use paper patch and two of them shoot pretty well, one with a rust enlarged bore and the other by who know's what - probably cordite ammo.  It's an 1896 with a carbine barrel.  Funny thing is, the barrel was loose in the receiver with only upward pressure under the Knox form holding it in place, yet it still shot well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jorge in Oz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 9:21am
Thanks for your responses fellas.
 
Ultimately he did not perservere with rifle and has sold it on the weekend.
 
The knowledge I've gain from this thread has been valuable so thank you for your responses, they are much appreciated. I'm still looking at buying a No.1 Mk 1 either full wood or sporter and I'm sure they have their own little quirks also.
 
Cheers
 
Jorge
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Nut 4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2015 at 11:28am
If it has been re-barreled you might want to slug the barrel to determine its true diameter. Bore diameters can range anywhere from .309" to .317".  I had a Pattern 1914 spread cast around until I took a .321" and sized down to .314". When you push a .311 dia bullet down a .313 dia bore it behaves like a shotgun. The same is true if you have a .309 dia bore and are shooting .311 dia bullets through it. If the bore is larger in diameter than .313 dia. you are most likely looking for a cast bullet. Jacketed pulls come in three sizes .311"(Speer and Sierra), .312" (Hornady), .313" (Speer). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2015 at 7:09pm
As mentioned above I would look into the scope eliminate that variable. Try checking the mounts also secure the rifle look in the scope at a fixed point try putting pressure on various points a see if your field of view moves. A 12" plus group I don't believe its the ammunition at those distances 6" group maybe I could be wrong. Look for the obvious loose screws, stock, have some one else see what their group is.. Lots of good points from some good shooters here. Crown check it for worn groove and lands, don't discount the bolt is it locking tight? Any play? Check head space. If your hand loading look at how far the bullet is in the throat? The most accurate loads touch the lands,it prevents bullet jump, only downside is it increases pressure slightly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2015 at 10:58am
Guys,,,He sold the rifle 2 1/2 years ago.
 
 
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