Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Rifles
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - What do I have here? No.4 Mk 1
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

What do I have here? No.4 Mk 1

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
shaun View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: April 01 2018
Location: Minnesota, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What do I have here? No.4 Mk 1
    Posted: April 01 2018 at 5:32pm
New member, here to share a recent find that came to me via an estate inheritance.  I've always wanted an Enfield, and have been trying to learn a bit more about what has landed in my lap for me to be the caretaker of.  This one happened to be in a locked trunk for over 20 years, and possibly a lot longer. I don't know how it came into the possession of the previous owner.

It seems to be a No. 4 Mk 1, as judged by the electro-penciled marking on the receiver.  (Call me captain obvious so far.) By my eyes it has M/47C stamped on the receiver near the butt stock, as well as on the barrel, just ahead of the receiver.  I take it this means I have one produced by Birmingham Small Arms Company out of the Shirley factory.

What has been harder to make out is the year of production.  I think I see at least "19" stamped on the butt socket (wrist?), but beyond that, it's anyone's guess... my best guess is "1940", but I really can't tell.  Below that, I see "0769" as part (all?) of the serial number.  If it is a BSA Shirley, I thought the serial would start with a "3"?  It has no letter prefix or suffix that I can make out.  I do see a "3" stamped on the barrel, ahead of the receiver.

Pictures are here: flickr

The number on the bolt is "B2343C A".  I also see "V.N.S" stamped on one of the fore-end pieces.  On the right side of the butt stock is a some round piece of metal screwed into the stock, with the number 70 on it.  The butt appears to be zinc, and has no markings or numbers I could find.  It also appears cracked in a minor way and the screws are caked with dirt so I've been unable to remove them.

Wood seems to be in rough shape and is really dark as you can see, but i'm hoping its just years of dirt and soaked oil or cosmoline, which i hope to be able to remove without stripping or harming the wood in any way.  My plan is to use a paste of Whiting powder and a light solvent like mineral spirits and draw out the oil with a bit of heat and a lot of time.  Once I get the wood clean, I was going to apply tung oil.  If anyone has other suggestions, I'm all ears.

Overall, my goal with this rifle is to completely clean it and then shoot it.  In the meantime, I'd love to learn more about its history from knowledgeable folks here...  thanks.

--Shaun
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Macd View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 26 2018
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Macd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 4:16am
Check this site. I am sure some of the guys can add lots more information.

https://www.marstar.ca/html/reflibrary/LeeEnfieldManufacturerMarks.html
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 679
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 6:30am
Welcome to the group Shaun.
The first thing I'm going to suggest to you is,take it to a reputable gunsmith and have the headspace checked along with the engagement of both locking lugs in the receiver. The bolt is not the correct one issued to that rifle. The A suffix on the bolt following the serial number indicates it was specifically matched to another receiver. The VANS is a manufacturer stamp. That being from Viners Ltd. Sheffield England. Pretty normal on that item.The only other bit of info I have is the butt stock may not be the correct one for that rifle as well. It appears to be from a No1 MkIII. The marking disc was phased out by the late twenties. The magazine and the receiver have the same serial number, that's good. Someone else will give you the run down on the date of manufacture,I'm sure. Other then that,you have a very nice looking BSA No4. Congratulations on your find.
Back to Top
shaun View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: April 01 2018
Location: Minnesota, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 7:40am
Thank you, Goosic and Macd for the welcome and good info.

I agree on getting it checked out by a gunsmith before shooting it.  I've been doing a bit of reading, and was tempted to get a set of okie headspace guages to check this out myself, but that still leaves the question of whether both locking lugs are engaging correctly or not.

Thanks for putting me on to this marking disc... i'm curious to start searching more for about what this one refers to. I haven't been able to match it up to anything in the marks list that Macd posted yet.

I've mainly been a collector of pistols (Lugers, Walthers, 1911s) and US military rifles (M1903, M1). I can sense the same feeling I had when I got my first Garand many years ago... a desire to know more and appreciate these amazing pieces of engineering and history.  As luck would have it, this estate also came with a Gewehr 43... but I know that is a topic for a different forum. :)
Back to Top
Canuck View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Agassiz BC
Status: Offline
Points: 2124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 8:25am
You have a Savage manufactured front sight protector.I agree on the butt stock being from a #1/MK3. How does the bore look?
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 8452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 9:21am
shaun:
I'm afraid you've missed the boat with the Okie gauges. The site is still up but the guy who ran it as a one-man-band has passed away.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8035
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2018 at 3:42pm
welcome , where in MN - im in central north of the cities 

yup - M47C is BSA , BSA first contract assigned 1000-9999 , second assigned 30000-39999 , then 40000-70000 doesnt help a lot except to say your mag goes with the receiver , they made very few in 41 , but yours has the later flip peep sight , likely 42-43 , the 44 production was in that 30000- range 

your buttplate is MAZAK/ZAMAK , common enough on no4s but most ive seen on north american rifles , 
Back to Top
shaun View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: April 01 2018
Location: Minnesota, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2018 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

welcome , where in MN - im in central north of the cities 

I'm in Carver, southwest of the cities.

I finally finished getting it all cleaned up.  I did a couple passes at sweating oil/grease from the wood... enough to see that the wood is in really rough shape, generally.  But, she is what she is.

I was really impressed with the internals of the safety catch being a machined worm-gear like mechanism... very intricate and cool.  Haven't seen anything like that before.




anyone know what this "Y" stamped on the underside of the butt stock represents?

I noticed this repair done to the wood on top of the barrel.

I need to get some Tung oil back on the wood, I think... or maybe boiled linseed oil... not sure which might be better.

Is it normal for there to be a lot of free play in the trigger?  I have about 1/2" of slop from fully forward to all the way back before it engages.  Wondering if this is typical or if I didn't reinstall the trigger/guard correctly.

Thanks.
Back to Top
shaun View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: April 01 2018
Location: Minnesota, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shaun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2018 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Canuck Canuck wrote:

You have a Savage manufactured front sight protector.I agree on the butt stock being from a #1/MK3. How does the bore look?
The bore seems to be in good shape... no rust that I could see and the grooves looks crisp and deep.  A quick reversed-bullet test at the muzzle leaves about 1/3 of the bullet outside, so it seems lightly used.

Thinking of getting a "more correct" front sight protector from a place like Liberty Tree Collectors... at least they look British-made.
Back to Top
maxwell smart View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: January 23 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxwell smart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2018 at 7:13pm
That amount of free play in the trigger is pretty normal for a Lee Enfield. 

The butt could well be off an early No 4, the trials rifles had the butt marking disc installed. If it had come off an SMLE, I would expect to see the round inletting for the safety lever on the top left front. This seems to be not there in the photos.
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 8035
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2018 at 8:41pm
there is a regiment for BLO that goes like this - once a day for a week - small amount rubbed vigourusly to get it warm with a soft cloth , then once a week for a month - once a month for a year then as needed , 

that stock looks normal - but dry- it needs the BLO treatment , for one that age , it has character the treatment will soften that and enhance the warmth of the wood , tongue oil is fine but builds a hard finish like varnish , not the original look , 

if it came with the marking disc its an early one  , they were discontinued very early in no4 production , if that stock is from another rifle it appears to match fairly well , also an early trait , 

i think you got a nice one , congrats , 
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 8452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 5:58am
You might want to do a steaming to raise many of the dents in the wood, then give it some BLO after its dried thoroughly. Are you familiar with steaming wood to raise dents?
Safety is intricate but it only has ONE correct starting place for the worm. If you find any odd behavior from it that's the first place to look.
Trigger is a "2 stage" but it actually has 3.
Stage 0 (for lack of a better term) from fully forward to part way back, completely floppy with zero spring tension.
Stage 1: first stage is 2~5 Lbs of spring tension. some rearward movement that stops at
Stage 2: 3~7Lbs almost no movement then *snap* it fires.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Honkytonk View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 30 2017
Location: Brandon Mb
Status: Offline
Points: 703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 50 minutes ago at 3:00pm
Shaun, welcome from Brandon, Manitoba, Canada.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.05
Copyright ©2001-2016 Web Wiz Ltd.