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What is the Story? 1860 Enfield MKII** Short Rifle

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j_wallas View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 16 2014 at 5:40am
Hi,

I came across this forum and wondering if you can provide some insight. I found this rifle in a house I recently purchased. I am completely new to antique guns but, according to my googling, I believe I have a 1860 Enfield-Snider MKII** Short Rifle.

Through Enfiled-Snider.com I was able to decipher some of the markings.

- War Dept. Ownership stamp (what does that even mean? did this gun see combat?)
- Crown with V.R - regular inspection stamp
- the lock view mark
- 800 yard site
- Royal Manufactory with 1st class rifle mark - what does this mean?

However the other markings on the barrel, lock plate, hammer, etc I would love to know what they mean. I have enclosed pictures below.

I was hoping to gain more of the history behind this rifle - it's story (where it's been, what all the markings mean...). I've found a few sites of similar rifles in the range of $700 - $1500 (no idea if these are accurate). I am not sure if I want to sell it or keep it as I think it would be a nice piece to have above the fireplace, especially if it has some history.

Any insight is much appreciated. Any questions or additional pictures needed let me know.

-J










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArcherSix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2014 at 9:29am
I can't tell you much you don't already know about your rifle. Just wanted to say, "Cool rifle!"
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2014 at 10:18am
Great Rifle!   Ammo 577 Snider actually is availible pricey but several semi custom ammo maker do load it.  As for the first class designation since these rifle were converted in the late 1860s from muzzle to breechloaders they may have been rated as to their serviability. This is a guess and I have been known to be wrong.Wink
 
  The best place for information about these guns is this site:
The specialise in Sniders and Martinis
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2014 at 10:39am
these were converted pattern 1853 rifles , the "first class rifle" marking on your rifle alludes me at first glance , but yes they were marked for serviceability , common in that time of transition to mark the rifles that were first line , as well as those that had been relegated to second line use , the conversions would take first line from the muzzle loaders and eventually take second position to the new made rifles of the martini 

the "I" below the mark IV number on this rifle indicates same -

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2014 at 8:25pm
By the By guys..Rhino has a few boxes of Martini-HENRY ammo in stock.
Packed 6 per box. .577/450 Dated )6/42..I think.
J.Wallas - Welcome to the forum.
What is the barrel like? Do you have RIFLING in there..or is it a "GUN"?
Does it have a bayonet lug?
We used to call these "ROLLING BLOCK" Enfields, around here.
They USED to be quite common and almost worthless. Haven't seen many around of late. Maybe the price has climbed.
Don't make the mistake of valuing your firearm by what you see on the forums. You will be sadly disappointed. Prices vary WILDLY between geographical areas. You may see one offered in the States for a decent price..but lotsa luck getting it with OUR import / export laws.
Just where in Ontario are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2014 at 9:34am
my martini in this photo is a 12ga trap gun , i do have another in original nick , but no ammo .....hmmm , may need to drop WR a line :>}
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2014 at 10:26am
A Sq: that would be a good idea. He's sitting on it, & it seems to be in good nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2014 at 7:21am
I don't see a bayonet lug on the side of the barrel. 

This might be a cut down three band rifle into a shorter handier two band. Not an official conversion, so collector value might not be there. 

But still is a nice gun. Enjoy!.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2014 at 11:18pm
Well, he doesn't seem to be answering any questions @ this point, so its hard to tell just what he has.
I aked earlier if it had a Bayo lug, & if it was rifled or not
Guess we gotta wait
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j_wallas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2014 at 8:27am
Hi all,

Sorry for the delayed response – busy Easter weekend with family and I’m in the middle of finishing up some house renovations.

To answer some questions:

-Location – I am located in Southwestern Ontario –in a small town near Waterloo/Kitchener/Guelph...

-What does the barrel look like – see some of the pics below. It definitely looks like there are more than 3 grooves in the barrel and it is definitely rifled.

-Does it have a bayonet lug? I don’t see one – but wouldn’t know what one looks like regardless. – look at the site at the end of the barrel – it looks like it was welded on – maybe somebody cut it down themselves??? I added more pictures.


So with all that in mind:
- Any insight into when it was made and when it was converted?
- Any ideas of what wars/or battles it could have been in?
- What do the markings mean inside the carbine and on the barrel? (Other than the WD and arrow, and LSAC symbol)
- And do all the crowns with an X below them mean inspection as well? What does the number indicate below the X?

Enjoy,

John

I posted the gun in this forum as well in case anyone is interested:
britishmilitaryforums



















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2014 at 6:29pm
Well, I have more questions than answere's. Its not completely clear to me, but in the 13th picture, is that the OLD Canadian Military property stamp, with the British on the extreme right?
Do you not have a bore light? Would be a good thing to get an idea of the barrel's condition.
My FIRST impression is that it was "sported" somewhere along the line. There were a lot of these around at one time. I have some friends in the Gravenhurst area that use them (in full military nick) that could give you an idea of value, because the only people that use that rifle now, are re-enactors.
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P.S. Looks like she needs a bath, as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2014 at 8:55am
i think you did well posting it on the britishmilitaria site , some of us visit there , some regularly , should get good info there 


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