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what is trigger pull of the rifle?

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Honkytonk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 9:16am
Shamu. I like the idea of moly grease. I just cleaned up the surfaces with Hopes solvent and applied Hoopes No 9. Next time I have it apart, I will do as you mentioned. One more question to you. It a year or so since I took my No4 Mk2 part to clean. The screw/small bolt that holds the rear of the stock together, it looks like a small threaded bolt. How does it come out again? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:11am
Twelve inch screw driver works the best
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:37am
Goosic. A thousand pardons. I got a big old flat screw driver for that. I meant the little one at the rear of the forestock. Different then a No4 Mk1. If I remember correctly, it has to come out, unlike the Mk1, before you can remove the receiver and barrel. And of course, trigger guard has to be removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dux-R-Us Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

EXACTLY!

The odd thing with triggers is if they're smooth they feel way lighter than they are.


I understand this.

My LE has a smooth trigger, so when I tested the let-off I was nicely surprised to find it at 5.5 lbs.   I was expecting 7 or so. 

this forum is great.  I really appreciate everyone's input.   so much collective knowledge to be shared.   By far this is the best forum I have ever been subscribed to.  

Cheers

Kevin
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 11:02am
That screw that you're referring to Honkytonk is there to keep lateral pressure on the wood. You have to remove it to remove the stock. It takes the place of the wood that used to be there before it went through a FTR. It will hang up on the pad the trigger is pinned to. Unscrew it as far as it will come out and then use the small screw from the trigger guard and screws in the other side, pushing the longer screw out enough to grab it with needle nose pliers...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 11:52am


My post read nothing about me adjusting the trigger on the LE.

Others on this forum adjust the trigger pulls, I suppose to allow them (the person) to shoot better.
And if the average LE trigger was as low as 3-5 lbs, I see no reason not to have it adjusted if a rifle is out of that slot.

Regards,





Dux-R-Us.
The term,"Adjust the trigger pull" on a Lee Enfield rifle,is a misnomer. You cannot physically adjust the pull off weight.(If this was to happen without effecting the two separation stages,you can call yourself very lucky.) You can stone and polish the contact surfaces,changing the angles so very slightly where the striker bent meets the sear,and where the sear meets the trigger humps,and then the the trigger humps themselves to smooth out the roughness of the factory installed components to give you a better,possibly a smoother pull, without changing the weight of the pull. When I asked you why,there was and is a reason behind it. Many individuals who purchase a Lee Enfield will try to,"adjust" the trigger pull to get the pull off rates lower. I've seen many a trigger with the humps filed so far down,the rifle will sometimes fail to fire or,the sear and cocking piece have been filed so far down they won't even contact each other anymore. If you are simply wanting some helpful advice as to achieving a smoother trigger pull? Just ask,and you will be directed to an instructional guide by Master Enfield Armorour, Captain Peter Laidler. It is a slow and time consuming affair with no margin for error. I don't have the link to it but someone here does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:42pm
One side of the cross bolt is a slot head, the other is the "nut" It has a pair of cross slots interrupted in the center by the other end of the bolt. You can either grind the middle of the blade to make a 2-pronged screwdriver or try needle-nose pliers to stop it turning.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:45pm
You can beat & grind on the trigger or sear all day & it won't change the pressures.
The ONLY way is to carefully & accurately change the face angle on the strikers front face. If you do this it must be right & you should also re case harden the cocking piece as well. Get it wrong & you need a new cocking piece & start over.

ZED has a jig you could copy if you're serious. He's posted pics of it on here a few times.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:46pm
Thanks guys! I now remember I had ground a slot in an old screw driver that buddy stole from me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:49pm
Steal it back!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 3:54pm
On my list! He liked it for adjusting valve lash on a small block Chevy. He also grabbed my old 16" screwdriver that works perfectly for removing butt stocks! Ive had some really stuck ones. A quick spray of WD 40, wait 5 minutes, that flat screw driver just seems to home in on the slot. And has lots of torque!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2018 at 10:09pm
Dux-R-Us
In your very first comment you stated that your LE has a very stiff trigger. In your third commentary you stated that your LE has a very smooth 5.5 lb pull you were pleasantly surprised with. Very conflicting comments there. Anyways,here's the rundown on what you had asked about.

Peters Postings on Trigger Pull :

trigger pull-offs. Part 1
Posted By: Peter Laidler
Date: Sat 3 Jan 2009 3:58 am
THE TRIGGER PULL-OFF
I hope that by now you’ve all got on your workbench and almost fully assembled No1 or No4 or 5 rifle. Assembled and almost complete except for the trigger pull offs. Now, you’ll see the importance of starting the job with a perfectly assembled bolt. The FIRST thing I want to emphasise is that if the cocking piece on your bolt is loose on the striker….., in any way, or wobbles up and down or left and right, then read no further because whatever happens, you’ll never get a consistent pull off. But what you CAN do is strip it down, degrease it and if my memory serves me correctly, then clean the ¼” BSF threads ……ah, it makes me breath a sigh of relief to hear those old imperial thread sizes again…. In the cocking piece and striker and do one of two things.
The EMER states that if they are loose, then you can stamp a small letter ‘S’ on the striker thread to tighten it up in the cocking piece. I’d prefer it if you would flux it and run a coating of soft solder around the threads. That never fails and I don’t call that a bodge either. Having got the striker tight in the cocking piece, we’re ready to go. The second test is to draw the assembled bolt back and forth in the body and make sure that the nose of the cocking piece fully clears the short/underside locking lug of the bolt. If it does, then we’re ready to go.
But first, here’s a few points I’d like to make clear. The top of the sear that contacts the cocking piece is the NOSE and this must be undamaged, beautifully smooth and round. The flat that the trigger ribs bear on is the trigger bent. This must be absolutely flat and polished in an up and down manner. NOT across! I know this might sound a bit long winded but believe me, when you’ve done it a few thousand times, it becomes second nature, believe me …….., especially when you have beady eyed examiners like David Lines, Mr Amto and Mr Saw out-inspecting your work prior to range testing. Oh yes, where were we? Yes ….., the trigger has two raised humps on it. These are the ribs. The BOTTOM one, closest to the axis pin or finger part is the FIRST rib or bent. All this rib does is act on the trigger bent of the sear, drawing the sear smooooothly down the face of the cocking piece until the topmost rib contacts the trigger bent of the sear. This TOP trigger rib or bent is called the second or the PULL-OFF rib.
Then, just as the second or pull-off rib of the trigger contacts the trigger bent of the sear, several things happen. Firstly the rotatory angle of attack between the trigger and the sear changes slightly increasing the leverage required by your finger to squeeze (or rotate) the trigger any further. Now the trigger pressure increases from the FIRST pull of between 3 and 4 pounds pressure to the second pull off pressure of between 5 and 6.5 pounds pressure. And at the same time, the first pull has lowered the nose of the sear to within a gnats knacker of the very bottom edge of the face of the cocking piece. Now, you just need to gently squeeeeeeeze the trigger that last smidgin, exhale, cross-hair level, pointer upright, add that extra pound and a half of pressure and off it goes.
Now DO NOT MOVE, observe the target, follow the flight of the bullet through the haze. The observer will be doing the same through his binoculars……… Good hit, now release the trigger and wait. But wait ….., just how do we get to the point of perfection with the trigger pull off……………. That’s coming next
Are you sitting comfortably-, then we’ll begin. (apologies to all those post war 50’s era kids who remember this phrase from the BBC ‘listen with mother’ programmes!)
Re: trigger pull-offs. Part 2
Posted By: Peter Laidler
Date: Sun 4 Jan 2009 5:12 am
In Response To: Re: trigger pull-offs. Part 1 (Peter Laidler)
Still sitting comfortably kids?
TRIGGER PULL-OFFS, PART 2
What we’re going to do is to set up a rifle as we would for an Armourers trade test or as the instructor teaching it to the class. By now, you’ll all have a perfectly set-up bolt that slides into the body and is clear of the sear. Next, we’re going to select a No1, a No4 Mk1 or a bog standard No5 because how the pull-off affects the No4 Mk1/2, 1/3 and 2 will become clear later. First, I want you to run a steel rule or straightedge along the top edge of the trigger-less trigger guard. It must be flat and not warped. Now, place it into its recess in the fore-end and insert the rear trigger guard screw through the body, trigger guard and screw it up. The trigger guard should lay down flat. If it doesn’t, it tells me that the draws at the rear of the fore-end are too tight (unlikely with your original fore-end) OR that the wood in the trigger guard recess is too proud. Identify what the problem is and scrape it so that the trigger guard fits flat and square. Ok, so, if it is slightly raised at the front trigger guard screw (NO, NO, it’s NOT the king screw, it’s the SCREW, Front, trigger guard……….), by, say a 1/16th or 1/10th of an inch or so, what the heck but remember, the fore-end is secured by the front trigger guard screw and not the tension of a distorted trigger guard….., got that? After ensuring that the collar is a PERFECT fit and is nipped between the body, the trigger guard and that the fore-end is tight, fit the trigger guard and trigger. You also need to ensure that there is no undue slack between the trigger guard, the trigger axis pin and the trigger. The trigger axis pins do wear and form a shoulder along the shaft so watch out for this. If you do need a spare, then they’re readily available from the usual parts suppliers or, if you want to cheat, then just use a spare PIN, cap, fore-end or shank for any of the 4BA screws such as rear trigger guard or foresight protector screw or even a 4BA clearance drill at .144” or 9-SWG for you oldies
Now test the action of the trigger as there is one thing you ought to be aware of. If the body is worn, then the bolt might be loose in an up and down way and this CAN affect the second pull-off. If this is the case in your rifle, adjust the pull-off when it is in its natural position and not under any other form of control, such as pressing down onto the top rear of the bolt. The trigger will give one of the following reactions.
1. A crisp clean first pull of the trigger until it meets with a slight resistance, then a second squeeze, and almost without noticing it, the sear is drawn down another millionth of an inch and off she goes. Sheer poetry in motion, perfection and a first class trade test pass
2. You can have a long uninterrupted straight pull down and fire off the action. This is a first pull only (or FPO on the In-Inspection sheet)
3. Or you can have the same again but heavier. This a second pull only (…yep, 2PO on the in-inspectors sheet)
4. Or you can have a good clean first pull, then the resistance, then another long heavier pull then it’ll go off, well, whenever it feels like it. But YOU won’t know except that it’ll be ‘sometime………’ This is a ‘drag 2nd pull’
2 - is caused by only the FIRST rib or bottom rounded rib of the trigger contacting the trigger flat of the sear
3 - is caused by only the TOP or PULL-OFF rib of the trigger contacting the sear
4 - the drag second pull is caused by the first rib being too low and it not drawing the sear down sufficiently before the top pull-off rib engages the sear
You have to identify which of these is affecting YOUR rifle. If the pull off is as identified as 1, then go no further. It’s just practice and feel as to whether there is absolutely no drag on the second pull. When I was the snipers Armourer, I used to squeeze the trigger with another finger from the other hand between the back of the trigger and the guard. Just the slightest feel of resistance and then a click as it fired was good enough. If you do have the perfect pull-off, as in 1, then you must do the following to confirm it.
After taking up the first and are now onto the second pull, release the trigger fully. The sear MUST resume its original raised position. In other words, the trigger and sear must reassert themselves
If you have feature 2, it indicates that the rounded LOWER rib is too high and drawing the sear down off the cocking piece before the top bent comes into operation. So, you must carefully stone the bottom rib squarely, while retaining the rounded profile, a few .001” at a time. Use a micrometer from the rear….., you’ll soon start to take it down bit by bit. This is the best option, so go carefully because you’ll quickly find that you have shortened the first pull and have JUST started to get the second pull, which is JUST what you want and need. Now it’s a case of fine adjustment so that the second pull comes into operation as the sear is right at the bottom of the cocking piece.
Option 3 is going to cost you because it indicates that a butcher has been at your rifle and has probably stoned away the lower trigger bent so that only the top, second rib is operating on the sear. You’ll actually see this by the shape of the trigger. I have to say that although we had this fault set up on out trade test and training school examples, I never ever saw it in service because such a butchered rifle/trigger couldn’t get past the system and no amount of warpage in the fore-end would cater for it. I suppose you could replicate it by bending the trigger guard, but you’d have to go some…
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2018 at 4:00am
For anyone not aware!
 Captain Peter Laidler is an ex British Army armourer; he has a lifetimes experience setting up these rifles. He's also written a few books about the sniper variants.
His method's are the correct ones.

For information; while the standard rifles are generally around 3 lb's first pull and around 6lb's second pull. Some versions, such as the L39A1 target rifle have lower two stage pull; due to a modified angle on the cocking piece face.

Safety check! When holding the trigger at first pull, the cocking piece will move rearward slightly as the sear drops down the face. If you release the trigger without proceeding to second pull/ firing. The cocking piece must return forwards to the original position. This is safety critical! If not the sear can be balanced on the edge of the cocking piece face and could slip off if the rifle is jolted or dropped. This is why it's good to have lubricated and  clean surfaces on the trigger components.
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