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7.62 Lee Enfield Envoy

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Smellie1953 View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 13 2022 at 12:00am
Morning All.....& greetings from the U.K.

Pending a variation I have just agreed to buy a '69 7.62 Lee Enfield Envoy for target shooting at/out to 1000yds. It has it's original heavy hammer forged barrel but I cannot find anywhere online that gives the twist rate, as I don't actually have the rifle yet is there anyone out there who can oblige? Once I have the rifle I will do some load development for it but in the meantime if there are any enthusiasts who reload for one of these rifles I would be interested on your thoughts as to what bullet weight, powders & loads you use. I use VVN540 in my .308 RPA Quadlite but I'm thinking that maybe that would be too harsh pressure wise on the old girl!

Any thoughts or info would be of interest! Thumbs Up

Thank you.
Smellie1953
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Goosic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 3:08am
My personal handload is to use 41.7grns of IMR4064 and a 168grn BTHP by either Hornady or Sierra. It is a very mild load and very safe to use with the Enfield action, period!

I have a No4Mk1* Savage action with a Canadian Arsenal 7.62x51mm L8 series six groove barrel with a 1-10" RH twist.

 I have been recently working with VihtaVuori N540 so I do not have any definitive load data yet but, have currently concluded that a charge weight of 41.5grn for both the 155grn Palma Match bullet and the 168grn Sierra HPBT with a C.O.L. of 2.795" for both as well, produce excellent results out to 200, 600, (for both the 155&168,) and 1000 yards,(for the 155)respectively.

The only working data I have is for the 155grn Palma Match bullet but again,, nothing definitive. 
With the rifle zeroed for 300 yards, the muzzle velocity averaged 2820 fps. At 300 yards it dropped to an averaged fps of 2263 with an averaged fps of a mere 1186 @ 1000 yards. The trajectory was 5" above rifle bore center at 200 yards, minus -62" at 600 yards, and a whopping minus -354" @ 1000 yards with an averaged 4-6mph differentiated crosswind drift of 86" @ 1000 yards as well.
My current data for the 168grn HPBT SMK only gets out to 800 yards but,  I'm still in a testing phase on this one currently...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:46am
You won’t get a 168 Sierra MatchKing to reach 1000 yds with any accuracy at all.  That bullet was designed for 300m International matches.  It will be fine out to 600, maybe 800 if you push velocity.  It becomes unstable in the transonic range.  I don’t know about the Hornady 168, it might be OK. 

Your best choices are a 175 gr or the 155 gr Palma Match bullets.  The new Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing is a redesigned International bullet and claimed to perform out to 1000 yds.  What you want is the highest BC bullet you can find in the lowest weight.  

I think the barrels are 1:12 twist, but you can easily confirm this running a cleaning rod with a tight fitting patch down the bore and marking the rod at the point it completes one full twist. 

I recommend loading to mild .308 Winchester load data.  This is after all a still a No. 4 action.  Occasional higher pressure loads when you want to shoot out to 1000 yds would be OK, but wear and metal fatigue are cumulative effects. 

Let us know how it shoots!  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smellie1953 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 10:02am
Thanks to you both, much appreciated!
 I've been advised to try 41, 41.5 & 42g of VVN540 under the Lapua Scenar 155g, having run the pressures through a program it would seem that 42g would be just on the max pressure of 19 ton so I shall run some test rounds & see....I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!
Smellie1953
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 10:30am
How to determine twist rate with a cleaning rod.
Slide the rod & a tight-fitting well oiled patch into the bore enough that its longer than the longest twist rate you can imagine.
Mark a long line longitudinally as some verifiable point (front sight is normal but any thing will do as long as its repeatable.)
Mark a horizontal line round the circumference at the muzzle or any other repeatable part.
Slowly withdraw the rod watching the marks you just made.
When the longitudinal line does one complete revolution make a second line round the circumference at the same indices as the first.
Measure the longitudinal distance between them.
Your twist rate is 1: that measurement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 10:43am
Zed should be able to verify the twist rate as far as the barrel goes but according to Mr Skennerton,  the rifling itself is a 4 groove with a RH twist on the Hammer Forged barrels...
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Thank you....I appreciate your reply.
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thank you.....much appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

 
#1:You won’t get a 168 Sierra MatchKing to reach 1000 yds with any accuracy at all. 

 #2: The new Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing is a redesigned International bullet and claimed to perform out to 1000 yds.  
#1: The 168grn SMK is accurate out to a negated 600 yards but, only if all the variables are in alignment. The fact of the matter is that particular 30 caliber bullet is realistically and repetitively accurate out to 300 yards only. Anything past that is a crap shoot.

#2: I recently was asked to participate in a 1000 yard shoot.  I no longer have my M700P so, I used the faux L8A5T.  I did happen to bring along 200 rounds of the redesigned 168grn Sierra TMK's and charged with 42.0grns of N202. (A powder specifically designed for use with the .308/7.62.)
That all being said. Between myself and 19 other ex-military "tactical operators," it was determined that the accuracy fell off sharply beyond 600 yards unless, you used a compressed charge using 44.4grns of IMR4895 and that only improved the accuracy distance by another 50 yards at the most. The actual test rifle was an, "As Issued M40A5" and produced SUB MOA groups out to 500 yards repeatedly. The CRO clamped my rifle into a lead sled and then had me send 10 rounds down range. It can and will repeatedly give 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards but only if it stays in the lead sled. The bottomline was the 168grn Sierra TMK is best left to the weekend warriors of the local gun range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 1:47pm
The Envoy barrel is a 4 groove 1 in 12 right hand twist. (taken from the original Envoy sales leaflet!) 

The original bullet weight that the barrel was originally designed for was the RG 144gr but the bullet of choice in the early days of TR at Bisley was the 150gr SMK over 44gr's of N140, I still use this load in a Whitaker Special and in the past a couple of L39's I owned. 

The 155gr SMK came along slightly later at Bisley after the army adopted it for the L96 sniper rifle; this was after looking through the plot sheets of the match rifle fraternity who have a long history of experimental long range shooting.

My gut feeling would be to stick with the 155gr bullet if you want decent results on Stickledown!   

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Originally posted by Smellie1953 Smellie1953 wrote:

Thanks to you both, much appreciated!
 I've been advised to try 41, 41.5 & 42g of VVN540 under the Lapua Scenar 155g, having run the pressures through a program it would seem that 42g would be just on the max pressure of 19 ton so I shall run some test rounds & see....I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!
The pressure I got using 41.5grns of N540 with the 155grn Palma Match bullet,  which is very similar in design as the Scenar came out to 41,300 PSI. In comparison, I have got a pressure of 41,200 PSI using 41.7grns of IMR4064 with a 168grn Hornady BTHP. 
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Thank you very much for your input, it's really appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

 
#1:You won’t get a 168 Sierra MatchKing to reach 1000 yds with any accuracy at all. 

 #2: The new Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing is a redesigned International bullet and claimed to perform out to 1000 yds.  
#1: The 168grn SMK is accurate out to a negated 600 yards but, only if all the variables are in alignment. The fact of the matter is that particular 30 caliber bullet is realistically and repetitively accurate out to 300 yards only. Anything past that is a crap shoot.

#2: I recently was asked to participate in a 1000 yard shoot.  I no longer have my M700P so, I used the faux L8A5T.  I did happen to bring along 200 rounds of the redesigned 168grn Sierra TMK's and charged with 42.0grns of N202. (A powder specifically designed for use with the .308/7.62.)
That all being said. Between myself and 19 other ex-military "tactical operators," it was determined that the accuracy fell off sharply beyond 600 yards unless, you used a compressed charge using 44.4grns of IMR4895 and that only improved the accuracy distance by another 50 yards at the most. The actual test rifle was an, "As Issued M40A5" and produced SUB MOA groups out to 500 yards repeatedly. The CRO clamped my rifle into a lead sled and then had me send 10 rounds down range. It can and will repeatedly give 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards but only if it stays in the lead sled. The bottomline was the 168grn Sierra TMK is best left to the weekend warriors of the local gun range.

Yep, which is why I’m surprised you recommended the 168 gr SMK for this application.  The OP is looking for a load that shoots good to 1000 yards.  

My recommendation is to do a search on what the Palma Match shooters use.  And it’s definitely not a 168 grain bullet. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Smellie1953 Smellie1953 wrote:

Thanks to you both, much appreciated!
 I've been advised to try 41, 41.5 & 42g of VVN540 under the Lapua Scenar 155g, having run the pressures through a program it would seem that 42g would be just on the max pressure of 19 ton so I shall run some test rounds & see....I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again!

Yes, this is one of the bullets used by Palma Match shooters.

For those that may not know, the Palma Matches are shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards only (Long Range).

The new version of the Sierra 155 gr Palma Match bullet is very similar in performance to the Lapua bullet.  You can load to a higher velocity than the 175 gr bullet, and still retain a respectable down range velocity.  Sierra has several different 155 gr Match Bullets, and they all have different ballistic coefficients. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:07pm
I honestly did not see the part where the OP expressed interest in shooting out to 1000 yards. I only recommended the 168grn HPBT using 41.7grns of IMR4064 due to its low pressure value for the Enfield application. That and the general 100 - 200 yard usage is a good way to get used to operating that particular rifle...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 13 2022 at 4:19pm
I will add one more thing about the Sierra 168 “International” bullet.  With the right load, these are solid performers out to 600 yards.  This 600 yard group was shot with my No. 4 DCRA conversion, shot prone in sling, no scope, no support other than my elbows.  

With a high power scope and shot off the bench, it would probably hold the 1 MOA X ring of the NRA MR target.  That’s dang good for a No. 4 with a service weight barrel.  An Envoy with heavy barrel should do better. 

I’m very satisfied with the 168 bullet out to 600 yds. A score of 97 and above is a NRA High Master score that it not easy to do with a military service rifle with irons shot in prone position. 

I know by my own experience they don’t do well past 600, that’s a well documented result.  But they are every bit as good at 600 as they are at 300. 


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