Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Rifles
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
Author
Message
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:40pm
Well if proofed to 20LT the rifle is approved for ammunition with a maximum average working pressure of 4150 BAR which converts to 60,187.45 PSI. Call it 60,000 PSI.
 
If still carrying only the 19LT proof marking the rifle is approved for use with ammo generating no more tha 3650 BAR which equals 52935.95 PSI. Call it 53,000 PSI since SAAMI rounds to the nearest thousand.
53,000 PSI is equal to the Max Deviation numbers for M80 ball.
 
Many long range and heavy bullet loads for the .308 exceed 53,000 PSI maximum average working pressure by quite a bit, in the neighborhood of 57-59 K psi.
 
SAAMI maximum pressure for the .308 is given as 62,000 PSI. This doesn't mean that manufacturers normally load their .308 ammunition to 62,000 PSI, it means that when tested by lots the ammunition will pass so long as it does not exceed 62,000 PSI.
So while you may buy .308 ammunition from a particular manufacturer and test it with a pressure level of 57,000 PSI being normal for ammunition from that lot, you might later buy a box of identical ammunition from a different lot and some or all the cartridges from that box can generate 62,000 psi without the manufacturer being liable to recall the ammunition or pay for any damages it might cause to your rifle.
 
I've found no PSI equivalent for the pressures of the M118 Long Range 7.62 cartridge, its working pressure in Copper Units of Pressure is given as 52,000 CUP with its Maximum Std Deviation within lots given as 57,000 CUP.
 
There is no formula by which one can accurately convert a CUP pressure reading to a PSI reading.
In general CUP pressures of cartridges in the class of the .308/7.62 are far lower than the PSI pressures as tested by EPVAT transducers.
 
The addendum to the US Military's list of ammunition specifications gives the pressure of M80 Ball in both CUP and PSI the ammunition tested by either or both methods.
The Maximum Standard Working Pressure of M80 Bal in Copper Units of Pressure is 48,000 CUP, not much higher than the Working Pressure of MkVII .303 ammunition as tested by radial crusher at 45,400 CUP (SAAMI specs round this down to 45,000 CUP), and about the same as the maximum allowable pressures of MkVIIIz ammunition (though the later can be found loaded to the same pressures as MkVII depending on manufacturer and whether or not wartime manufacture resulted in increased pressures).
 
So converting or manufacturing a Enfield Rifle to handle standard M80 Ball is no great feat, if the rifles held up to firing MkVIIIz they should hold up to firing M80 Ball or its equivalent, but should be proofed to 19 LT at minimum even for the lower pressure Infantry Ball.
 
I'm fairly sure that M118 Long Range and Special Ball would push the limitations of rifles proofed to 20 LT, and if very many rounds that reached the maximum allowable deviation of 57,000 CUP were used these might cause irreparable damage to the rifle in the long run.
 
I've read that when converted No.4 rifles were proofed some rifles appeared to have passed proof but developed stiff bolts and difficulty in extraction. According to that source these rifles were condemned without attempts to rectify the problems.
Near as I can figure these rifles had suffered warpage of both bolt body and action body.
 
A member of another forum posted that a friends converted No.4 had suffered this sort of warpage when he'd fired the rifle with wet ammunition when it rained while they were at the range.
One of Martin pegler's books on sniping recounts a similar failure of a L42 rifle during the Falklands Campaign. The sniper reported that when in battle during a cold dizzle his rifle first began to lose its zero then the action became progressively more difficult to operate. He had to discard his L42 and continue the fight using a captured Argentine FAL rifle. Probably the scoped FAL the Argentines used as sniper rifles at that time.
 
Firing with wetted cartridge cases can increase bolt thrust, the higher the working pressure of the cartridge the greater this excess bolt thrust will be.
James Sweet's book on target range use of the Enfields tells of SMLE rifles suffering cracked action bodies if fired in the rain, in "extreme cases" as he put it. At the very least the SMLE rifle printed its groups far higher when ammunition got wet.
The No.4 also threw its groups high if ammo got wet, but theres no indication that the action body might crack, these being .303 chambered rifles not 7.62/.308 chambered conversions.
The P-14 .303 rifles threw groups a little higher but no where near as high as the rear locking rifles.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 6:30am
Is the Indian 308 ishy made out of a better metal so that it can shot the higher pressure ammo? In an ishy 308 could you shoot civilian 308 ammo in it? and 7.62? if so how high of grain in your 308 round can you get up to?
 
Just wondering because i am geting one.
Back to Top
Cookie Monster View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar

Joined: January 22 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 6:52am
Originally posted by bullseye0317 bullseye0317 wrote:

Is the Indian 308 ishy made out of a better metal so that it can shot the higher pressure ammo? In an ishy 308 could you shoot civilian 308 ammo in it? and 7.62? if so how high of grain in your 308 round can you get up to?
 
Just wondering because i am geting one.
 
They are designed to shoot 7.62 NATO only. The receivers was upgraded from  .303 British to shoot 7.62 NATO.
Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 7:57am
really? dang. I saw somewhere that they made them out of a better metal so they could shoot 308 win. I really want to e able to shoot 308 win through it...would there be a way?
Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 8:10am

All the gun places and sellers a 308 win(7.62 NATI) by the ammo type it take too.

Back to Top
Cookie Monster View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar

Joined: January 22 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 8:44am
Bullseye they are not the same  thus they are NOT interchangable !!
 
 
Back to Top
Cookie Monster View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar

Joined: January 22 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7505
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 8:49am
Originally posted by bullseye0317 bullseye0317 wrote:

All the gun places and sellers a 308 win(7.62 NATI) by the ammo type it take too.

 
Of course they are telling you that, they want to sell you ammo. Please heed our warnings they are not the same
Back to Top
John Coleman View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: September 21 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 113
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Coleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 9:13am
In 1984, American Rifleman Magazine listed some pressure testing that had been done in a 24 inch Remington "test barrel". I'm guessing a commercial test barrel would have a tight, minimum SAAMI chamber. Groove diameter .308", rifled four grooves .176" wide, right-hand twist, one turn in 12 inches. Here are a few military loads they tested. Velocities were measured 15 feet from the muzzle.

WRA-68 148 grain M80 ball - 2829 fps - 48,700 CUP

LC-81 168 grain M852 - 2676 fps - 53,900 CUP

LC-77 174 grain M118 - 2650 fps - 55,400 CUP









Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 10926
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 9:49am
thanks for opening it back up - there is always a wealth of information [new and old] that come from these 'discussions' , they never get settled - they never get resolved , its been going on for years everywhere on the net , we each must read 'all' of the data presented and decide for ourselves , thats why i dont enter the fray but do read with delight the new info that gets presented and weigh it carefully , this is a very interesting topic and i always enjoy the debates 
Back to Top
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 10:40am
Originally posted by bullseye0317 bullseye0317 wrote:

really? dang. I saw somewhere that they made them out of a better metal so they could shoot 308 win. I really want to e able to shoot 308 win through it...would there be a way?
Before 1965 , starting around 1950, Indian .303 SMLE rifles were made from an alloy steel called SWES48. I have no idea what this steel contained but after awhile they found that it gave an unacceptably high percentage of failures of action bodies during the normal run of proof testing, which at the time consisted of one dry proof cartridge and one proof cartridge that had been oiled, the oiled cartridge putting the maximum back thrust on the bolt as the final proof test.
 
They found they needed rifles and for whatever reasons they chose to stick with SWES Steel and suspended use of the oiled proof test cartridge to reduce the number of failed actions.
Around 1965, perhaps a bit earlier, the Ordnance factory obtained a better alloy steel, described as an EN steel, EN is a European grading system EN standing for European Normal.
I've read from numerous sources that the EN steel contains Vanadium. I looked up the use of Vanadium in Steel and found it was introduced in the Automotive Industry to produce high strength axles, and such alloys are very resistent to deformation from repeated shocks, such as the stresses on an action due to firing of high powered rifle cartridges.
 
The EN steel is definitely better than the SWES48 steel, but how strong it actually is I can't say without knowing its exact number to compare to the European Union list of EN alloys.
 
Its common for gunmakers steels to be found in the listings of alloys used by the automotive industry. Most US gun alloys have a SAE number, which can be used to discover its alloying metals and general properties.
 
British manufacture SMLE rifles used alloys listed by a system unique to Britian at that time. It took awhile but I finally ran down the specifications for the steel used by Britian, a medium high Nickel content steel, also known for resistence to shock and ability to recover from stretching under pressure. That steel is similar to the steel used to make the M1917 and P-14 rifles, but with a lower nickel content on average. The highest nickel content of steel used for the SMLE is within the range of that used for the M1917, but the lowest acceptable Ni content of steel used for the SMLE is about one percent less than that used for the M1917 rifles. 
This means that some SMLE rifles are far stronger than others.
 
I suspect that Indian .303 SMLE rifles manufactured before 1950 are a good deal stronger and more reliable than many .303 SMLE rifles manufactured between 1950 and 1965 when 2A rifle production began.
 
If you insist on using .308 ammunition you should first have the headspace checked and if its not within SAAMI limits for .308 you might as well forget it.
If by some chance headspace is within limits for the .308, find out which brands and loadings of .308 generate pressures no higher than 48,000 CUP- 51,000 PSI, the same pressure range as M80 Ball.
The Managed Recoil .308 by Remington has been recommended by 2A owners
 
Federal also makes a Low Recoil reduced power .308 load, that may be suitable.
 
As always any such ammunition should be used only in rifles that are in safe shooting condition, meaning a good bore , good chamber, and headspace within SAAMI specifications.
 
Better all around if you use only military 7.62 NATO cases and assemble handloads using the bullet types you would wish to use with .308 sporting or target ammunition.
The milspec casings are better able to compensate for generous milspec headspace and loose chambers.
 
Otherwise I would not recommend the 2A rifle.
The .303 rifles are as powerful as you are likely to need a rifle of this type to be, and both sporting and milspec .303 ammunition is available at reasonable prices.
Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 2:54pm
Alright, I will cheack the headspace. What If mine wasmade in 1966? That would be the best of he bst steel right? In the indian 308.
Back to Top
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2010 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by bullseye0317 bullseye0317 wrote:

Alright, I will cheack the headspace. What If mine wasmade in 1966? That would be the best of he bst steel right? In the indian 308.
Probably so, since they had only recently begun production, so they'd probably have taken extra care with the first examples.
Then again condition is very important. An older rifle might have seen far more use and perhaps have been rebarreled later on. But age is not a definite clue to condition. Some early production rifles may not have seen as much use and abuse as many later production rifles.
 
There have been reports of 2A rifles built on the older SMLE action bodies, but I have my doubts about some of the claims made about these rifles over the years.
One never knows what sort of mix and match franken rifles can pop up when huge numbers of obsolete rifles hit the surplus markets.
 
Probably the best bet would be to buy from an owner who'd had the rifle in his possession for some time and fired it enough to have discovered any flaws long before deciding to sell.
 
When a major changeover in production takes place anomolies can pop up. When Springfield production switched over to the double heat treatment methods to cure the problem of brittle receivers an unknown number of older receivers in unfinished condition somehow got folded into the production lines. A few receivers that should have been of the high number metalurgy were found to be identical to the suspect low number receivers, and there were failures of these that had ordnance officers scratching their head for awhile.
 
The reports of 2A rifles built on receivers carrying markings no longer in use in the 1960's on might have been the result of such a snafu at the factory.
Since .303 rifles remained in use, its also possible that a few sent to the factory to be refurbished got mixed in with 2A rifles and were rebbareled using 2A barrels by mistake.
 
As for the SWES48 alloy I suspect that those which did pass the standard oiled cartridge proof would be plenty strong. Sometimes strength of the alloy itself is not the problem. If switching to a new alloy heat treatment methods formerly used in SMLE production may not have been suited to the new alloy. This could have resulted in many receivers not being up to snuff.
 
The EN alloy is probably not only stronger, but less sensitive to variations in temperatures during the heat treatment process.
I also suspect that the maching qualities of vanadium steel would aid in preventing crack propogation at critical points.
The main area of crack formation of the SMLE action body appears to be at the rivet holes where the charger bridge is mounted. They use a shrink riveting method there, and this might act to widen any flaws in the steel over time.
Loosening of the charger bridge was a sign something was going south with that action body, and could result in a rifle being condemned or set aside for Drill Purpose only.
Owners of the earlier LE rifles feel that the lack of a charger bridge and its mounting holes makes those action bodies stronger than the later SMLE action bodies.
Near as I can tell most Lee Enfield actioned sporting rifles from major manufacturers used the older style action body without charger bridge.
 
Simply altering the machining process at the charger guide mounting could improve the strength of the action. The newer alloy would also improve overall strength and durability.
 
With this type of action durability over the long haul is as important as estimates of ultimate strength derived from proof testing.
 
I'm reminded of the brand new 1953 Mercury my father once bought. The front axles were obviously strong enough when manufactured but only two years later the right front axle snapped off due to metal fatigue, though the car had never been subjected to any abnormal stesses.
Luckily no one was injured.
Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2010 at 8:30am
Ok that was alot of help. How would I tell by looking at the gun if it is made out of the good steel? And if it is could I shoot all of the 308 win ammo? What ones could i shoot with it?
Back to Top
LE Owner View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: December 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2010 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by bullseye0317 bullseye0317 wrote:

Ok that was alot of help. How would I tell by looking at the gun if it is made out of the good steel? And if it is could I shoot all of the 308 win ammo? What ones could i shoot with it?
Well other than the date of manufacture, if well into the post 1965 production of the 2A, I don't think just looking at the rifle can tell you much about its metalurgy.
 
If the rifle shows honest wear, signs that it has fired more than just a few rounds of Indian issue 7.62X51 (India was not a NATO member state but adopted the NATO cartridge) and shows no signs of set back of locking lugs or recesses and still has good headspace , then its very likely that the metalurgy is as good as they get.
By this I mean that the rifle has proven to be durable in normal conditions, which actually tells you more than its proof tests would if the rifle had been unissued and never fired since being proof tested.
Numbered parts should all match, bolts don't interchange between rifles, though a non matching bolt from another rifle can be fitted well enough to work okay. Unfortunately a retrofitted non matching bolt is likely to result in increased headspace.
 
I've fitted a new unissued bolt to my 1915 rifle, not rocket science but it does require a fair amount of skill.
Bolts were hand stoned to insure reasonably equal bearing of the lugs, and the Proof testing rounds completed the mating of locking syrfaces by driving them together under high pressure, insuring full mating of these surfaces, which is necessary for best accuracy and safety of the lock up.
 
If a guide rib of the bolt body shows upsetting of the metal at the rear, this can be a sign of either soft steel, or that the rifle has been subjected to excessive pressures.
There should be no stiffness or drag when moving the bolt forwards and backwards, and no excessive side play of the bolt.
Enfield have a reputation for loose tolerances to allow them to continue to operate when dirty, so some play is expected, but if theres a lot of side play it may indicate that the rear receiver walls have spread. 
 
The bolt head should clock in without excessive overturn. When screwed in the extractor lug of the bolt head should line up with the guide rib. A slight overturn is allowable, but more than ten degrees overturn is reason for concern. In wartime as much as twenty degrees might be allowable for a well worn .303 SMLE, but thats pushing things into the danger zone. I don't know how much overturn they'd allow for the 2A, but any overturn is a sign of wear, or a mis matched replacement bolt head.
 
So far every Indian manufacture .303 SMLE I've cleaned and examined showed signs of the extractor having been stoned at some point, in an effort to improve its function I suppose. Some were very worn down, and may have been stoned due to a chipped blade or some other problem when a replacement was not available. They all worked though. 
One possibility would be that ammunition that had a relief cut above the rim had been used at some point. I found that a new unaltered extractor sometimes hangs up in the relief cut causing failures to eject still the edge of the blade was stoned to thin it, the unaltered extractor not being able to push the case to the left as it does normally.
Winchester and HXP .303 have this relief cut, other milspec .303 does not have this cut so far as I can tell.
 
I have run across a few .303 Indian rifles that showed some setback and/or upsetting of metal at the guiderib, loose or even cocked at an angle bolt heads, and one that had nearly invisible ripples in the bolt body.
I'd assumed that these had been damaged by use of MkVIIIz machinegun ammunition, or tropical heat degraded ammunition that had generated excessive pressures, but thats was before I learned of the problems with pre 1965 SWES48 steel action bodies.
 
India was long involved in genocidal warfare with Pakistan, and every rifle that could shoot was fielded , some that probably should have been retired decades earlier.
Ammunition supply seems to be a bit iffy as well, with police stations still keeping 1960's and earlier MkVII ammunition in stock for their .303 rifles. This resulted in many misfires and poor shooting by police at Mumbai during the terrorist attack there.
 
Very few of the 2A rifles ever showed up in stores here, but many of the wire wrapped Indian grenade launcher rifles were sold here.
These looked to be a good buy. They had been either refurbed or manufactured new for use as grenade launchers. Stocks appeared new without a ding and no oil stains, metal finish was perfect.
Apparently India had huge stocks of .303 grenade launching blanks on hand, so rather than make or buy 7.62 grenade launching blanks ,( available 7.62 blanks may not have been suitable for a cup discharger since most NATO rifle grenades are the shoot through type that can be lauched with live rounds) ,they decided it was better to issue available .303 rifles for this purpose, and spare the 2A rifles from the wear and tear associated with grenade launching.
Usually the British only chose rifles that for one reason or another were considered suitable for live ammo only in emergencies, and stamped "EY".
All the Indian GL rifles I've seen looked to be in perfect shape, not recycled clunkers. They also looked to have been placed in storage and never issued.
 
 
Well thats a bit long winded but I'm enjoying the discussion.
 
I hope you find a good 2A rifle, I know there are many good ones out there.
 
 
PS
 I can't really be sure, but it seems to me that winchester may have managed to keep the pressure levels of its 150 gr .308 ammunition very close to the original specs. They liked to used Olin double base powders which have a rep for good performance at lower pressures than most other powders.
One reason that double base ball powder was chosen for most 7.62 production was that it gave a bit lower pressure in the shorter NATO 51mm case than IMR powders once used with the .30-06.
Australian 7.62 NATO and some others use single base powders only, since these were better suited to the FN FAL gas system, and less erosive to bores and pistons than DB powders.
 
I've been very leery of milsurp 7.62 ammo since a batch of FNM ammo began to self destruct on me.
I pulled the bullets and tried to salvage the powder, but it ate through a steel powder canister and released an corosive vapor that rusted up every steel object near the canister.
Back to Top
John Coleman View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: September 21 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 113
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Coleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 7:32am
Originally posted by LE Owner LE Owner wrote:

[QUOTE=bullseye0317]
 I can't really be sure, but it seems to me that winchester may have managed to keep the pressure levels of its 150 gr .308 ammunition very close to the original specs. They liked to used Olin double base powders which have a rep for good performance at lower pressures than most other powders.
One reason that double base ball powder was chosen for most 7.62 production was that it gave a bit lower pressure in the shorter NATO 51mm case than IMR powders once used with the .30-06.
Australian 7.62 NATO and some others use single base powders only, since these were better suited to the FN FAL gas system, and less erosive to bores and pistons than DB powders.
 
I've been very leery of milsurp 7.62 ammo since a batch of FNM ammo began to self destruct on me.
I pulled the bullets and tried to salvage the powder, but it ate through a steel powder canister and released an corosive vapor that rusted up every steel object near the canister.


As I remember a few stories about developing 7.62x51 and 308 Winchester, Winchester was kind of left behind when the US military decided to use IMR powders for the service rifle cartridge. IMR-4895 had been developed for use un 30-06 by Dupont in 1941. In 1944 it was decided to use only IMR-4895 in all 30-06 ammunition. Well Dupont did have some political and military connections but so did Winchester. During WWII Winchester loaded 303 for the British using Ball-C powder.

After the war the US Army had seen how modern and advanced the German small arms were. The US Army wanted to develop new, more modern weapons. Well the US had won the war and was downsizing the military. Congress wasn't interested in spending any money on new weapons.

Well a couple of things happened. One was the Cold War. Congress realized the communist countries were developing new arms. Another was Winchester wanted to be the US Army rifle ammunition maker.  Winchester demonstrated that it could get near 30-06 velocity from 300 Savage using their ball powder. The US Army wanting an angle to get Congress to spend money on new arms thought this might be a good way to do it. Also Winchester still had some connections.

The US Army wanted the cartridge to be better for automatic weapons than the sharp shoulder of 300 Savage and they wanted the velocity to match 30-06.  This caused the cartridge to increase in size a bit. The original bullet was steel core with no lead. The selling points to Congress was the "shorter" case used less copper than 30-06 and the bullets used no lead. Both were in short supply in WWII. In order to use this new cartridge the US Army of course needed new weapons. The US Army desired lead core bullets and the fact that M80 ammunition was originally "overhead live fire training" ammunition was an excuse to develop and make lead core ammunition.

Winchester thought  the development of the cartridge and use of ball powder would insure that Winchester got exclusive contract to make 7.62x51 for the US military. Well Dupont still had very strong connections. The ammunition contracts were originally split between Winchester and Remington which was owned by Dupont. Remington and Dupont got approval to use IMR-4895 powder and the increase in case capacity from 300 Savage was just enough to allow IMR-4895 to reach the rated velocity. Later Remington and Dupont switched from IMR-4895 to a short cut version of IMR-3031 called IMR-4475 for easier machine loading of cartridges. Had the original case capacity been the same as 300 Savage, double base ball powder might have been required. The velocity of 7.62 NATO is 2750 fps +/- 30 fps at 78 feet or 2809 fps +/- 30 fps at the muzzle (some sources say 2808 fps at the muzzle).

Winchester did get a contract for 30-06 M2 ammunition during the Korean War. It did use ball powder and the powder was position sensitive and caused 'ringing" of the rifle chambers, damaging the rifle. The powder was surplussed and sold by Hodgdon as H-380.
Back to Top
bullseye0317 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2010
Location: Plains of USA
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bullseye0317 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 7:52am
Ok, thanks ill just buy 150 grain 308 win and all 7.62 that loks in goot shape. When my gun comes in ill check it out and get back on how it checks out. The pics looked nice and made in 1967 or 1966. Looks like there is no black paint covering it and nice finish. But ill look and make sure everything is fine. I hope it is becuase I cant return it...Ill explain what i get and how it is too you (LE Owner) and you give me your advice. Thanks!
A US Marine Fights for
His Country,
His Goverment,
His family,
His Freedom,
Your freedom,
your family,
your country,
YOUR EVERYTHING,
But what are you fighting for?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 234
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.