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7.62mm Enfield No4. I'm not that good...

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Goosic View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 04 2019 at 10:45am
Went to the range this morning and I will not be competing tomorrow.  What I was invited to tomorrow was not for me to compete in but rather watch. The 2019 SP-Unl5 Arizona Championships. Don't know what that is,don't really care for that matter. The competitors where practicing this morning, everyone was shooting three specific calibers, 308/300 Blackout/338 Lapua.  Everyone was using chronographs,lead sleds,all kinds of electronic scoring stuff,and two guys were using remote triggering systems.  They never touched the friggin rifles after being set up in the lead sleds. Stood next to the rifles and clicked a button,PFFFF! They all had silencers screwed on the damn things too! They handed me three official NRA 100 yard targets and said get to it,let's see what that rifle of yours can do. The first target was five sight in shots with ten consecutive follow up shots,no scores. The second target was ten shots as well as the third and final target,both scored for points. They thanked me for showing up,bought me a hot dog and a cup of coffee.  I think I did exceptionally well today. he!!,I know I did! The dude with the remote trigger thingy? Ten shots fireada and then measured. .414". That's ten shots inside your thumbnail. This is what I did today.Bottom and top photo is my third and final ten shot grouping . ..Hug
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 11:52am
Goosic, judging from the targets, your rifle shoots about 1 to 1.5 MOA.  If you can, measure the center to center spread of the extreme shots of the group (shots furthest apart); this is how we usually measure group size (although, that's not the only way).  Measure from the hole centers and not the extreme edges of the holes. 
In my experience, this is as good as it gets for the No. 4 LE shooting supported off a bench for ten consecutive shots.  Others here may argue it's better than that, but I'm rather skeptical.  Yes, I've been lucky a few times and shot 10 consecutive shots with my No. 4, 20x scope, off the bench at 100 yards C-C spread just under 1.0 inch; but that was a rarity.  My recorded average 10 shot group size for my match load (average of ten 10 shot groups) was just over 1.5 inches. 
 
Some of the pictures you posted before with your No. 4 7.62 showed sub-MOA 10 shot groups; this is incredible and seems to break all the known "rules" about how accurate the LE is. 
 
What you described sounds like bench rest competition; something that doesn't interest me particularly, and as you said, they barely even touch the rifles.  The rifles are weighted down, very heavy barrels, super light triggers.  Certainly nothing like a military service rifle.  And there is no way a No. 4 can compete with that; no matter what we do to it.  4 lb target barrels in 7.62 were made for Commonwealth Service Rifle matches in the late 1960's, which did improve accuracy, but not to Sub-MOA levels.   
 
No matter how you cut it, this No. 4 rifle of yours shoots exceptional for a WWII Service Rifle.  I hope to see you out at Talladega sometime; you certainly have admirable skills in rifle building and shooting.
 
 
   
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 12:04pm
One more thing, the targets appear to be the SR-1 target (200 Yard Short Range Target reduced for 100 yards).  The CMP Vintage Military Rifle matches are shot on the SR Target.  From the photo's it appears you scored 100-9x on at least two of the targets.  The best I have ever done prone with sling is 100-8x, with PH 5c aperture sight.  So you beat me! 
 
Not sure if I've shot this target benched with scope before; but on a lucky day, I might get my No. 4 to hold the x ring (which measures 1.35 in. on the SR-1 target). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 12:43pm
The target did say SR-1 on the bottom of it.  All I know with any amount of certainty was that I took a rifle sitting on a wobbly Parker Hale bipod, tucked the butt into my shoulder,put the crosshairs on the x and squeezed the trigger. The second grouping was sitting,the third was prone. These bench rest dudes were having conniptions everytime their bullet didn't hit the x. This is why I don't compete. The way everyone was acting,you would have thought you had just walked into a daycare when they had just ran out of juice and cookies...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 1:35pm
I think you did right Goosic.  Leave them to their game.
Your rifle is fantastic and so is your shooting level.
If these blokes put their rifles on a bipod and tried it, you would hear them from up here in Canada.
Some things are taken a bit far, as in, shooting has to have a practical application or is a waste of time .
 
Fantastic results and congrats!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 1:42pm
Benchresters are their own weird, wacky subset of the shooting world. Don't let them put you off!

If you can, re measure your targets from the inside edge of one to the outside edge of the other hole. Or take your measured group & deduct 7.62 mm. for a center to center true group size.
Shocked

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 2:18pm
I agree with all the above.  You won’t see this attitude at the CMP Games matches; these are for fun (although, the guys shooting the high scores can be competative amung each other, but they dont tend to be arrogant, they want to help others and bring more into the sport).  I shoot the matches to help me improve my own ability, I’m competing with myself, to keep improving.  

Goosic, do you have a “stock” No. 4 in .303 you could shoot in the Vintage Military Rifle match?  Your Faux No. 4(T) Savage can be used in the Vintage Sniper Matches.  You could also shoot the Savage in the VMR match by removing the scope and use a Mk 1 rear sight.  And if you grind off the battle apature, you can leave the Mk 1 sight installed with the scope on, so easy to switch between VMR and Vintage Sniper.   





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 3:53pm
I left the Mk1 sight on the rifle. Just ground the peep sight off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 4:29pm
That’s it.  

Gossic, I’d be honored to shoot a Vintage Sniper Match with you with your Savage.  Not bragging at all, but I suspect we would win!  

Any chance you could travel to AL?  I’ll find out when the next CMP Vintage Sniper Match is being held.  If we spend a day before the match doing a bit of practice and get the 300 and 600 yd zeros, we would be all set for the match.  I’d really like to see a British LE rifle beat out the A4 springfields with the 8x Unertles.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 5:26pm
I found my target that was the best 10 shot group I’ve  shot from my LB No. 4 Mk 1/3 with my .303 match load.  This is off the bench, 100 yards, with Leupold 20x scope.  I shot this back in 2002 when I started developing match loads and was a novice shooter.  

For a while, I was confused with my records because I carefully measured the elevation and windage spread on every target and plotted the individual shots in my scorebook.  The group sizes didn’t seem to be consistent with the grid lines on the target.  Eventually, I realized the targets I was using did not have a 1 inch grid, the grid spacing measured 0.84 inches, WTF!!! 

Point is not to brag about this, but to simply say that it’s the best I could achieve in shooting more than 40 ten shot groups during load development.  The center to center spread of the extreme shots measures 0.79 inches.  In no way does this represent typical results, which for me shooting prone with service sights is 2 to 3 MOA.  I’ve concluded that the No. 4 rifle with match loads is capable of 10 shot groups in the range of 1 to 1.5 MOA.  From there, you need to add your own skill in maintaining sight picture/alignment, steady hold, breathing, striker release, etc.;  for me, that adds another 1 to 1.5 MOA.  

So, let’s put this into perspective.  The CMP Vintage Military Rifle Match is shot at 200 yards on the NRA Military SR target with a 7 inch diameter 10 ring (3.5 MOA).  So yes, the No. 4 rifle is easily capable of shooting a “clean” score and beat out any other nations military rifle of the same period.  It’s more about the skill of the shooter.  But, we already know that, don’t we? 

So don’t let the Yanks brag about how the 1903 Springfield was “the best target rifle” fielded of all the military service rifles. And, the M1 has no chance against a No. 4 when it comes to accuracy. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42rocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 5:37pm
Wow
Nice shooting..
 
Later 42rocker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 5:56pm
britrifles: 
I just measured my last ten shot target from today like you did. I need to preface this. I do not know what this translates into from a competitive  standpoint. I just know I can shoot stuff from a long way off and hit it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 7:36am
This is a great thread, and find it very refreshing to have shooters together who have well set -up rifles and can Use them !
 
Congrats Brit and Goosic!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2019 at 7:13pm
Wow!  Great shooting!
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