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All Loaded up for the Matches

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britrifles View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:23pm
Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote devrep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 


that's s nice couple of battle rifles right there.
double gun
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doco Overboard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 




Good luck this week-shoot well hope the weather is decent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:47pm
Check out the Dillon RL 550B (or "C")
to me its the perfect balance between manual control & fast automation.
Its only weak spot is its depriming/priming setup.
Because I like to clean primer pockets I don't deprime on it. I have a single stage for that.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 3:58pm
That’s a nice set up.  I still do all reloading steps single stage.  It’s not too tedious for bolt rifles, where I neck size only, but for “gas guns” it’s a PITA.  Have to tumble brass, lube, full length size, tumble again.  Trimming is usually required more often in FL sized brass than it is for neck sizing.  

I’ve long since stoped weighing charges, so charging the case and seating bullets is fairly quick.  I never crimp rifle cartridges.  

I was out at the range on Friday.  I shot about 200 rounds.  It took me most of yesterday to prep and prime the brass and a few hours today to reload it.  Even with a progressive press, the brass FL sizing will have to be done separately as the lube must be removed from the case.  It’s become a chore.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:14pm
how do you avoid weighing charges ? i hand dip mine and hand prime but its easy for me as i single stage every step , i dont load more than a few thousand of anything/everything these days , maybe i need to shoot more ? 

have a great time at the shoot i envy you , it sounds a real fun tile and i really like what you are taking with you to participate ,  the no4 and the garand look like real nice rifles -but what 223 are you using ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:34pm
A Square, I record the micrometer setting on my Redding powder measure for the particular charge weight of the load I’m using in my reloading data log book.  I confirm the weight of first two or three powder dumps from the measure with my RCBS digital scale.  It generally never changes, very repeatable, until I open up a new lot of powder, but I like to confirm this each time I load.  I then proceed with charging all cases direct from the measure. 

I’m loading AA2520 for my AR-15 (.223 Remington), it will meter +/- 0.0 gr direct from the measure, it is a ball powder.  H4895 for the M1 .30-06 and Varget for the No. 4 .303; these are stick powders that typically meter +/- 0.1 grains direct from the measure.  No need to weigh out each charge, much to time consuming and no benefit at all for shooting service rifle matches out to 600 yards.  

I used to load a lot of 9mm for IDPA matches, on a single stage press.  That’s where a progressive would be really beneficial.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:49pm
ok , if your getting reliably repeatable charges i see why you need not check it , ive not had that great of luck and as i said i hand dip every charge because i load so few at any given time , we all have our pet peeves , mine is a precise charge , but sounds like you have that controlled very well , i need to look at a better powder drop - the one i have is an old lyman ...never got it to work reliably , but then i only fiddled with it a couple times then frustration set in , 

what AR are you shooting - i know we normally dont discuss them here but this is the OT , im shooting three DPMS these days a rifle , a carbine and a dedicated 22lr , i also have a 69 vintage colt upper on a civi DPMS lower that is my retro , 

all the others ive built are with my kids now including my LR308 24" SS bull that i miss from time to time at moments like this - but i could get it back if i didnt prefer the M14 type M1A for shooting 308 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:24am
One of the tricks I learned over the years is to rotate the handle of the measure at a slow and steady movement, and push thru if a powder stick gets caught and sheared by the measure, don’t back it up or rotate the handle quickly.  This gives a very consistent powder drop weight, within +/- 0.1 grains about 90% of the time.  On a 40 grain charge, that is accurate to 0.25 % of the 40 grain charge weight.  My measure is the rotating drum type Redding measure that my Dad had.  



None of the top competitive service Rifle shooters I know will weigh charges.  We all shoot a lot and this adds significant time in the reloading process with no benefit in score.  I was not able to measure any improvement in group size between throwing charges from my measure into the case with a +/- 0.1 variance versus weighing and trickle charging to +/- 0.0 gr.  

My AR has a DPMS lower and a White Oak Armament Service Rifle upper (float tube with A2 hand guards).  Barrel is a 20 inch Bartlein 1:7 twist.  Adjustable UBR stock. 1-4x Hi-Lux XTC service rifle scope as allowed by the CMP rules.  






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:59am
I know we have beat this one to death, but here is an example when I will weigh and trickle charge every case.  

I’m loading up some .308 Winchester today with 175 grain Sierra Matchkings for 1000 yard shooting from my neighbors M70 Police Sniper rifle.  I’m using IMR 4064 which is a long stick powder and does not meter well through my Redding measure, +/- 0.3 grains.  At 1000 yards, the velocity variance will show up on the target.  The rifle will be shot off the bench with a bipod support.  And, I’m only loading 50 rounds.  So, it is well worth the extra time to weigh and trickle charge each load.  

Make sense?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:03pm
I use the Dillon 650, with the case loader. It's excellent for the pistol reloading, as I use the powder doser on the rig. 
However it's also pretty good for the rifles. But I don't use the powder doser for the rifles. Because it's not accurate enough with some types of powder.

I was wasting too much time on prepping the cases for rifle by hand. I was cleaning the twice due to the lube when sizing. Now I de-prime, resize, then I clean in the ultrasonic bath; dry and trim and clean primer pockets. I bought the Lyman rig for cleaing the pockets and deburring the cases, which does save time when compared to doing that by hand.
 Then return to the Dillon rig for priming. I have a Lyman electronic doser, so use that and to fill the primed cases, the back to the rig for the bullet seating.
Still takes a while though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:15pm
Here's a full write up of my case prep for .303 and 7.62.


Best of luck with your competition Britrifles!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:


I’ve long since stoped weighing charges, so charging the case and seating bullets is fairly quick.  


With this, I will assume that there is the probability that you could be off by as much as 3 or 4 grains plus or minus regardless of how well you have set up your powder charging station. You will also see a definitive increase or decrease in pressure just by where the bullet hits as well. There will come a time that if loading on the minimum and without checking to see if the charge weight is where it should be, the high probability of a half charge will occur resulting in a squib load and a possible ruptured barrel, if not worse. 
I have a lifelong friend that spent 28 years in the Armed Forces. He was a Gunnery Sargent/Scout/Sniper, what have you.  During one of our conversations,  I had asked how he was issued the ammunition he needed when sent out on a mission.  He told me that his team handloaded all their ammunition, and down to the exact grain so there would be no issues when it came time to squeeze the go button. Their respective weapons systems where all tuned and adjusted to their handloads as well.
 
"There is a discipline here that the range time combined with working up a round specific to your weapon need to be in balance. To do so otherwise will open up instabilities with both weapons performance and accuracy." ~Retired Gunnery Sargent Conrad E. Chavez USMC.

For me personally, I need the satisfaction of knowing that each and every single cartridge is identical to the next as far as charge weight and seating depth are concerned.  I have acquired the ability to split my time evenly between reloading and rangetime as recommended by an elite member of the Armed Forces of the United States, and in doing so, I can enjoy both without the loss of either discipline. 
My hat is off to you britrifles for having the utmost courage to forego the tedious process of weighing each charge and basically hoping for the best if you will.
A question for you. If you are throwing charges as you have stated so you have more time at the range. Would it be conducive in both time and expense, to forego reloading all together and simply buy off the shelf brand ammunition instead?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:04pm
Goosic, I think you meant 0.3 to 0.4 grains off?  I’ve probably weighted 1000 dispensed charges over the years from my powder measure and I have a good understanding on how accurate it is.  Ball powders will dispense to +/- 0.0 grains, drops charges within the measuring limits of my RCBS electronic scale.  Absolutely nothing gained by weighing every charge.  

As my previous post said, Varget and H4895 will dispense to +/-0.1 grains.  I will weigh the first few charges each time I load to confirm I have set the measure correctly, and will also weigh again the last few to be sure the measure setting did not move.  

No chance of “under” or “over” charges with these powders. No more so than the chance of an erroneous reading on your powder scale.  I’ve probably loaded 20,000 rounds this way, and it will never result in a squib or burst barrel. 

IMR 4064 however is not that consistent in my measure.   +/- 0.3 grains.  Not enough to be concerned with, but not sufficient for 1000 yard accuracy work either, so I do weigh and trickle charge for these loads for reasons of maximizing accuracy. 

Most military cartridges and probably all commercial cartridges are machine loaded. Every charge is not weighed.  

Reloading does two things for me.  It makes shooting affordable and it allows me to produce match grade ammunition for my purposes.  I don’t “hope”, I collect data and evidence that the process I use is highly repeatable and extremely accurate.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:18pm
I did not mention this step in the process:  I visually check the level of powder in all the cases to confirm one was not missed.  Particularly important for pistol ammunition that could have erroneously had a double charge.  It’s never happened to me, but the consequence of a double charge in pistol ammunition is serious, potentially catastrophic, so this check is advisable.  A double charge in a rifle case is obvious. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:26pm
Its going to depend on the combination of powder grain shape & powder meter design & operation.
But I can usually get +/- 1/10 gr for a 2/10 gr max variation if I'm being conscientious. & thats with Dillon's sliding charge bar.
With my normal charge weights thats just not worth the minor variation. & yes, I have actually tested it.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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