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All Loaded up for the Matches

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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:37pm
My experience is similar Sham.  It will depend on the quality of your measure.  Mine is a “benchrest” version made in the early 1960s and is very repeatable.  A technique is required to minimize variability. 

Here is something relevant out of the Sierra Reloading Manual, 5th Edition discussing throwing charges from the measure directly into the case, this is not as unusual as you may think: 

Proof of this can be found in the fact that very few competitive benchrest shooters bother weighing their charges.  The vast majority throw the charge directly into the case right from the measure.  If you see someone at a benchrest match carefully weighing each and every charge, chances are that he (or she) is a novice, and just hasn’t conceded to the wisdom of more experienced shooters. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:44pm
I have, admittedly modified my Dillon meter a little.
The "funnel part" at the bottom is polished & I've added a big knob for the powder setting nut instead of Dillon's hex bolt.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 2:26pm
Conceding to the wisdom of a more experienced shooter that only knows of one way to shoot? 
If a bench rest shooter does not bother to weigh their respective charges, why then, even bother with the reloading aspect? It would seem most reasonable to go to Bullets Are Us, point at a box and say gimme four of those, then head to the range, lock that $10,000 plus racegun in that metal contraption, dial in the X&Y values, and then touch the trigger, would it not?
A BR shooter lacks the discipline to sit,stand,kneel, or lay down in any position and just shoot the weapon. A bench rest rifle is no different than that of a testing rig. It is locked into position, the shooter makes his adjustments accordingly and then never actually holds onto the rifle other than to pull the trigger.  A custom handload would not matter either way with any reliable off the shelf brand sufficiently working in place of that handload. So yes, I can definitely see where it would be a waste of time if I were a novice bench rest shooter.  I am not a bench rest shooter and will never concede to being one. I like knowing how the rifle responds by way of touch and felt recoil. I like knowing that I can shoot my rifle from any given position without the necessity of a metal cage holding the rifle instead of actual arms and hands being used. We can definitely all agree to disagree as to how one chooses to reload as opposed to the other though.
I do wish you the best of luck britrifles in your upcoming matches.
And please share with us your results when you have returned...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 2:38pm
Benchrest is the ultimate in precision shooting.  Accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch.  And they don’t even weigh charges, which to me was rather surprising.  I had not seen that paragraph in the Sierra manual before, although I’ve watched some benchrest shooters load up their cases right there on the bench from their clamp on powder measures, without a scale, and proceed to make a one hole group at 600 yards. 

But I’ve learned over the years that building ones confidence is a critical element to accurate shooting.  I concede that measuring out every charge will be necessary for some shooters to build and maintain that confidence.  I’m not trying to convince anyone NOT to do that, but just communicate my own experience and how I arrived at that conclusion that for me, it has become unnecessary.  The choice is our own to make. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lyman1903 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:40pm
 
I have the same results with my Redding powder measure, and my Forster powder measure, 

ball powders, right on the money, each and everytime,  and sticks (4895/4064) will have some crunch and some small variations,  

when I was shooting Garand matches, I did trickle some, then bought the 1st gen electronic dispenser when it came out,  
it does a great job but is slowwwwwwwwwwww.  and was likely not needed, but it made me a bit more confident that the ammo was not an issue,  





I use a Dillon for play ammo  and some pistol ammo, 

the Service Rifle and Garand ammo go thru a Co-Ax,  (best press out there IMHO)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lyman1903 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:46pm
re the benchrest guys, 

I would imagine those powder measures are extremely accurate in what they throw, and have been measured, tuned, etc etc  

IIRC the Harrell's Measures were the go to for the precision guys, 

if you have faith in your measure, it will save you as step if  you load on the range, 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 4:15pm
Harrells makes a very good measure.  I thought about getting one, but my Redding Benchrest measure does so well and is very repeatable.  

I loaded up 50 rounds of .308 today, I weighed every charge.  Powder is IMR 4064, which is a fairly long stick and does not meter very consistent in my measure.   The ammo is for the 1000 yard line in a sniper rifle, so I trickle charged to bring each charge up to 42.0 gr as measured on my RCBS electronic scale.  The lowest weight thrown from the measure was 41.7 and highest was 42.1 grains (i.e +/- 0.2 gr).  I’ve occasionally seen as much as +/- 0.3 grains with IMR 4064.  This variation would have been fine for M1 match shooting at least to 200 yards without any loss in measurable accuracy.   Some claim that constant volume is as important as constant weight.  






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2021 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Benchrest is the ultimate in precision shooting.  Accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch.  And they don’t even weigh charges, which to me was rather surprising.  I had not seen that paragraph in the Sierra manual before, although I’ve watched some benchrest shooters load up their cases right there on the bench from their clamp on powder measures, without a scale, and proceed to make a one hole group at 600 yards. 
 
Picture was taken directly from the internet: 

The Ultimate in Precision Shooting?  Where the owner of the big chunk of metal that consists of a huge barrel attached to an even bigger receiver gets credit for turning some dials on the metal platform the barrel and reciever are mated to until the crosshairs are lined up and he or she pulls the trigger without even actually holding the big metal contraption? 
The only human factor involved here is that the contraption needs to be manipulated in a way to get it to put a bullet down range by having all of its dials turned until the X&Y values are entered and then the human pulls the bang button. I have witnessed a bench rest contraption that is computer controlled and all the variables are entered on a laptop and then the,"Shooter," presses the enter key. Weighing a specific charge would be redundant at this point. It wouldn't matter what was spat out from that thing. It would still hit its intended target. Give the human in the picture my fake L8A5T or my M700P and have him attempt the same precision shooting he is accustomed to with that shooting rig and it would look like a toddler throwing a wiffleball. Yes, I use a tripod to assist with keeping the forend steady. I am physically handicapped. I cannot stand for long periods, nor can I sit for long durations and need a sandbag, block of wood, to steady the front of my rifle. Getting a target fix and holding it while actually shouldering the rifle and squeezing the trigger is all me and absolutely no different than how I was trained to fire a weapon using anything at your disposal for support. That, and working up a specific load to compliment the rifle it is tailored to, to assist in just that much more of a smaller group based from actually holding and shooting the rifle from any position other than it being clamped down into a metal holding device.  The contraption pictured is anything but a weapon. It cannot be transported without difficulty, it is not capable of multiple on the fly course corrections and it is not user friendly.  Ammunition used,regardless of homegrown or store bought does not play into the controlled setting prior to, during, or after the firing sequenc.   As stated earlier, as long as the contraption is pointed in the right direction, and all the dials are turne d correctly, it will ingest anything it is designed for and get it on target. To insinuate that one must be a novice by not following BR shooting protocol is a fairly obtuse way of thinking and only allows for one train of thought, therefore making an assumption that all other forms of shooting and reloading disciplines are itself archaic and grossly outdated...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 3:23am
Yes, that’s why I don’t have an interest in Benchrest shooting.  It’s a test of the rifle and ammo and not the skill of the shooter. Although Benchrest shooter might disagree with this, I don’t know.  Benchrest is the ultimate arbitrator of how consistent the ammo is, for the rifle is essentially a rigid structure and it sits on rest which prevents any movement imparted my the shooter. 

If weighing charges was necessary to obtain accuracy, it would be here in Benchrest shooting.  They must be using very high quality measures that give them the consistency they need.  Although I have personally seen benchrest shooters charge cases direct from the measure, I thought that was odd at the time, because I was weighing and trickle charging all my rifle loads for my No. 4. That was 20 years ago.

I have a friend that shoots in F-Class, which is shot in prone position with a front tripod rest and rear sandbag rest. Rifles have heavy barrels and high power scopes.  I was talking to him the other day and he realized that Service Rifle shooting is much more a test of shooting skill than F-Class and has the added dimensions of shooting in three positions:  standing, sitting and prone.  Then there are rapid fire and slow fire stages.  It is meant to be representative of the infantry rifleman’s methods.  

The toughest thing about shooting long range is learning to compensate for shifting winds.  I’ve yet to learn this skill.  I was shooting the AR at 600 yards last Friday, and had three minutes of right windage dialed in to account for the 4 to 5 mph cross wind right to left across the range.  I hadn’t noticed the wind shift after the third shot and a 3:00 shot in the 7 ring was the result.  So, I removed the 3 minute Right windage on the scope and a 9:00 shot in the 7 ring was the result!  That 4 mph breeze had picked up again and I could not detect it by watching the flags.  I dialed the 3 minutes Right windage back in and a 3:00 shot in the 8 ring was the result.  I had just lost 8 points because I did not know how to read a 4 mph shifting breeze.  Out came my spotting scope to watch the mirage at 300 yards (midway down the range).  I watched until I saw the same conditions on each shot and four consecutive shots in the X ring resulted.  

None of this had anything to do with my rifle or my loads, or my ability to hold the rifle and align the sights and smoothly pull the trigger.  It was my inability to read the wind and make corrections.  This is just one of the challenges we face in mid range and long range shooting. I can’t imagine how those snipers take mile and a half shots, but that’s one of the jobs of the spotter, making windage allowances and watch where the bullet impacts.  





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lyman1903 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 5:47am
Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 6:23am
I was reading some information the other day on a F-Class forum, and had to laugh, they call the Service Rifle shooters “Sling Shooters”, not heard that one before, but perhaps appropriate.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SGonger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 6:33am
Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,
Could add the long range lead thrower mobile equine (coyote & feral critter) shootem’up into that mix too......yes!?  TongueWink
Anyone seen the Tardis Box anywhere? 🤨
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lyman1903 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:30am
Originally posted by SGonger SGonger wrote:

Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,
Could add the long range lead thrower mobile equine (coyote & feral critter) shooter into that mix too......yes!?  TongueWink


or maybe a reenactor?  Light Horse type?Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:36am
Benchrest is a test of the equipment & load only.
They actually try to remove the shooter from the equation!
There are "sled guns" which are more like field artillery than any recognizable rifle as we use the term.
they don't even pull the trigger, but use a remote release of some kind!
The thing with bench-rest is that they'll fire 45 rounds, but only the ten on the "for Score" target count, the other 35 are all sighters.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads24/rail+guns1452135998.jpg
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:44am
another, more extreme version.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/rail-gun.jpg
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2021 at 8:10am
We have a 1000 yard range here and that is where I watched a two man operation punching in computer codes into a laptop and watching all the gizmos whirring away until the contraption that houses the barrel and breaching mechanism stopped. The sighting in was done via two camera links setup between the contraption and the target and one camera on a drone. The one computer tech tapped the Enter button on the laptop, the contraption made a loud crack sound and a couple of seconds later after reading the telemetry off of the laptop, the two man operation high five each other and then started the process over again. That is not shooting when the actual shooter is removed from the equation.
What britrifles is doing in service rifle competition and what F-Class guys are doing is what shooting is all about. When you become one with the rifle, and if that includes trying to tweak that little fraction of accuracy out of that rifle by making that miniscule powder charge weight adjustment then so be it. 
The BR dudes do not have the handicap of actually having to hold an actual rifle and get into the various positions prior to shooting...
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