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Annealing aftermath

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Marco1010 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marco1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 3:46pm
Wow ! some substantial force used there...
I suspect the annealing is causing a loss of the Zinc.

"Cartridge Brass is an Alpha brass which are malleable, can be worked cold, and are used in pressing, forging, or similar applications. They contain only one phase, with face-centered cubic crystal structure. With their high proportion of copper, these brasses have a more golden hue than others. The alpha phase is a substitution solid solution of zinc in copper. It is close in properties to copper, tough, strong, and somewhat difficult to machine. Best formability is with 32% of zinc".
Annealing the cases too long or at too high a temperature could mean that you are melting the zinc out of the brass essentially. The Zinc has a melting point of just over 400 degrees C. and even below that the Zinc will begin to oxidise, once oxidised this will interfere with the properties of the case brass.
The Zinc actaully provides the strength to the brass. So if say you burn out some of the zinc, then the copper component will be higher which gives the soft flexible properties. and maybe this is the cause of the shoulders collapsing as this area has lost the reinforcing of the Zinc.

Also the HPX may have been manufactured with a low zinc content anyway, which wouldn't help.
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Marco1010 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Marco1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 3:53pm
There is qite a good article about science of annealing if you look up bison ballistics website
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philtno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Marco1010 Marco1010 wrote:


Also the HPX may have been manufactured with a low zinc content anyway, which wouldn't help.

That's what I suspect and, again, probably with just some of them from a batch that would share the same brass composition.  
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philtno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by Marco1010 Marco1010 wrote:

There is qite a good article about science of annealing if you look up bison ballistics website
Thanks for that, Marco.
I'll have a look.

By the way, Reloaders.co.nz have already replaced the press.....had to argue a bit for it to fall under the 2-years factory warranty but finally they accepted and I just received the new one Smile
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philtno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Pukka Bundook Pukka Bundook wrote:

I still think the main problem is over-annealing, Phil.

That could be if that issue I have would happen with any of my cases....no matter the brand.
I notice that some of te HXP brass I have outline a very slightly different rim shape and colour for certain years of manufacturing; Some look more "redish"....more like copper....which would tend to confirm the brass composition issue???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 10:16pm
You had stated that the brass was collapsing into the shoulder when using the resizing die. I watched as a friend of mine lubed up the whole case,including the shoulder and neck. When he cammed the lever down,there was more resistance than necessary and when he removed the cartridge it had a bunch of dimples all around the shoulder and it appeared to look like the neck was collapsed.  He hydrauliced the case and collapsed the shoulder by over lubing the whole of the case.  He had to remove the die and thoroughly clean all the lube embedded on  the wall of the die. Could this be something that has happened to you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2020 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

You had stated that the brass was collapsing into the shoulder when using the resizing die. I watched as a friend of mine lubed up the whole case,including the shoulder and neck. When he cammed the lever down,there was more resistance than necessary and when he removed the cartridge it had a bunch of dimples all around the shoulder and it appeared to look like the neck was collapsed.  He hydrauliced the case and collapsed the shoulder by over lubing the whole of the case.  He had to remove the die and thoroughly clean all the lube embedded on  the wall of the die. Could this be something that has happened to you?
I have collapsing when using the NECK sizing die....the LEE Collet Die, not the full length sizing, and with only a fraction of my HXP brass, not all of them.
But yes, I notice that some of the soot and lube residue was accumulating on my FL sizing die.

What I think may contribute to my issue is a combination of factors including the characteristics of some of the HXP brass i have, the neck sizing it self (see photo and the difference with the FL size die in regards to the sides of the brass.....) 
When pushing the brass against the collet, there is no support on the sides of the brass, unlike the FL sizing die which kind of is acting like a rifle chamber.


Now, there could also be an "annealing" issue.....some brass not withstanding it as well as others?? 


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philtno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2020 at 12:36am
[/QUOTE]
I notice that some of te HXP brass I have outline a very slightly different rim shape and colour for certain years of manufacturing; Some look more "redish"....more like copper....which would tend to confirm the brass composition issue???
[/QUOTE]

Here is what I mean. It's not that evident with the photo but there is a difference in the colour.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2020 at 5:32am
When I worked, our Fabrication Dept had a PMI gun. It was used to identify composition of piping etc to ensure the proper welding rod and procedure was used. It was accurate and pretty cool. Do you know anybody in a welding shop that may have one of these? I think they're pretty common now. It would definitely tell you % of elements within that brass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2020 at 5:39am
I suspect your right Philtno, some of your cases were over annealed, as explained in the Lee instructions, resulting in buckled shoulders.  Also make sure the collet is not sticking closed, or partially closed, I had this happen to me, likely from closing the collet without a case in the die.  I use a bit of grease on the contacting surfaces (outside of collet where it contacts the upper bushing).    

Still, none of this explains why you were not getting sufficient neck tension and bullets were dropping into the case. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2020 at 6:54pm
I concur with britrifles.  I recently attempted to anneal some brass solely for the aesthetics that Honkytonk described. The brass is once fired brass. It was when I was seating the bullets that I had the neck of the case buckle into the shoulder. After pulling the bullets and depriming I found that with the minimalist amount of pressure using a small pair of pliers, I was able to completely crush the neck and shoulder  of the case. A definite accident that might have shed some light onto your predicament Philtno? This is the culmination of over annealing and simply seating a bullet.
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