Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Rifles
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Another Noob Seeking Info-Photos Added in a Reply
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Another Noob Seeking Info-Photos Added in a Reply

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Online
Points: 13002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 1:21am
Sorry I was typing instead of approving! Now I see it.Thumbs Up

That actually helps, even if it shoots down my clever theory as LB never made any Mk2's. I'm probably wrong but weren't Fazakerly the only place to make No2's other than Pakistan?

As for the crest I'm guessing the original stamp was a bit tilted down & so deeper at the bottom, when it was imprinted, the upper parts were ground off when scrubbing the information & just the bottom hoof-prints remained. Maybe?\

What does the seam on the bottom of the magazine look like?
A single line going along the middle from front to back like this:

______________

or a pair of elongated letter "Y"s joined at the bottom, like this:

>------------<


Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
machodoc View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 15 2013
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machodoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 2:40am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:



What does the seam on the bottom of the magazine look like?
A single line going along the middle from front to back like this:

______________

or a pair of elongated letter "Y"s joined at the bottom, like this:

>------------<



Man ... I'm not seeing any seam.  The mag appears to have been scrubbed.  Here's what I've got ....


Old, fat, balding guy ... that narrows it down, right?
Back to Top
machodoc View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 15 2013
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machodoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 3:44am
The three marks on the socket ... might they be parts of the "star" shown in this photo?  And, if so, what is the meaning of that star mark?




Old, fat, balding guy ... that narrows it down, right?
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Online
Points: 13002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 5:34am
I don' think so.

The * (asterisk) is a notation that there has been a slight modification to a Model & Mark, but not enough of a change to be a new mark. Your rifle is a No4 Mk2, there never was a No4 Mk2* only the No4 Mk1 ever became a (*) model but it had a different bolt catch.

If you unnerstann the British Model, Mark, revision tier it goes like this.

Rifle No X (the original version).
Some relatively big change is made & it becomes the
Rifle No X, Mark 2
Then there is a further refining of the mark 2 & it becomes
Rifle No X, Mark 2*

Later there is a further big change & we get the
Rifle No(X+1)

It makes sense eventually, honest.Evil Smile

Meanwhile I think I may have identified your receiver, by a process of elimination. Follow me along here its a bit confusing (It wouldn't be an Enfield if it was simple.)

Your receiver is stamped as a No4 Mk 2, so that's the real clue here.

Royal Ordinance Factory Fazakerly (a suburb of Birmingham in the midlands) opened in 1942.

Only Faz made the Mk2 in the U.K. All the other factories switched from No4 Mk1's to  L1A1 (SLR/FAL) rifles or other guns entirely.

The Pakistani Ordnance Factory at Wah Cantt was the only other factory making No4 Mk2's, but they got Fazakerly's left over equipment to make it on. Pakistani production, some equipment & parts from Faz & BSA-Shirley. But the factory only started in 1947.

Pakistani made rifles are mostly walnut wood, Faz are mainly Beech or Birch.


So it looks like you have a Fazakerly made rifle that probably went to South Africa at some point & was then parted out & sold in the US as a bitster.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Online
Points: 13002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 5:41am
As for the magazine, pop out the follower & spring & look inside, the seam types are here the left being Faz & the other 2 being Savage made.


Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Online
Points: 11175
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 6:18am
yes shamu/bear , mk2 , id not seen it in the poor photos , that is quite obvious when i look now , 

i have miss-givings of the photos as they leave out crucial info and leaving off the final photo would have me thinking some kind of ruse had i not seen this post on other forums , 

something is just not right here -

in order for this to be a mkI/2 it would have to start as a mkI , that said both savage and longbranch made some early on , or the british mfgr'd could be used , 
to be a mkI/3 it would have been a savage/longbranch as only they made the mkI* 
these refurbs would ave been marked as such , but whats bothering me here is its actually labeled mk2 , not either of the above , so ...is it a mk2 fitted with a re-cut mkI stock ? 

there were no conversions of indian rifles to mk2 , and they didnt make the mk2 , 

nor to my khowledge did the pakistanis , 

so could this be a kyber pass rifle ? 
Back to Top
machodoc View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 15 2013
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machodoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

As for the magazine, pop out the follower & spring & look inside, the seam types are here the left being Faz & the other 2 being Savage made.

OK ... I had to get schooled on the obvious--how to pop out the follower.  Pretty slick design!

According to the seam, it's a Faz ... straight line from fore to aft.  The follower also has an F over a 52 stamped into it, so I suspect that's a Faz mark?
Old, fat, balding guy ... that narrows it down, right?
Back to Top
Clay Peters View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: August 29 2013
Location: PRK (CA)
Status: Offline
Points: 41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Clay Peters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 8:42am
Hi Machodoc,

How does it shoot? Looks like a very nice rifle for sure. Have fun with it.
Back to Top
machodoc View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 15 2013
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machodoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Clay Peters Clay Peters wrote:

Hi Machodoc,

How does it shoot? Looks like a very nice rifle for sure. Have fun with it.

Hi Clay -  It actually shoots very well.  I've only fired 20 rounds through it (four groups of 5) from sitting at a bench with elbow on the bench (no beanbags, rest, etc.).  Out of the four, I got one group of five (my last one) into a 2" pattern at 100 yards.  The other three weren't as tight, but they weren't bad at all.  All of the groups were high, but that can be adjusted.  I generally shoot for pattern anyway.  
Old, fat, balding guy ... that narrows it down, right?
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Online
Points: 13002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 9:08pm
Yup its a Faz magazine.

A Square, I don't think its a conversion Mk 1/2, or 1/3, but actually made as No4Mk2. I think the confusion comes from the fore-stock rework & that could have been done by someone after it was made, or even sold out of service.

I know the Indians didn't make No4 Mk2's but I'm pretty sure the Pakistanis did using the machinery & tooling left over from Fazakerly.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Bear43 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: August 11 2010
Location: Doland, SD
Status: Offline
Points: 2799
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2013 at 9:40pm
I caused the confusion Ermm  I saw that converted fore-end and assumed it was a conversion. I tell people never to assume.... Well, looks like I need to follow my own advice Embarrassed
 
Shamu, you are right about the Pakistanis making No 4 Mk 2's and about the machinery and tooling. It was taken from Fazakerley and set up in Pakistan.
 
Machodoc, glad to hear it shoots well. That's the important thing.
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Online
Points: 11175
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 2:40am
ok , i agree made as a mk2 , and refitted with converted fore-end in after life , 

as to the pakis - im not much up on those but i do have the 'bible' here somewhere , and oddly enough it does not cover POF , 

strattons volume 2 says POF mfgrd no4 rifles = post war from 57-60? and indicates they were mk2 , so ill buy that , i had thought them to be mkIs for some reason but sinse they never entered my collection i had not looked into them , i did look at the indians as they were once paryt of my collection , 
Back to Top
machodoc View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 15 2013
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote machodoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 3:15am
Just another couple of data points.  The more that I research these, the more I find out that may be worthy of note:

  • I only recently learned that the bores of these rifles had different numbers of grooves.  This one appears to have six.
  • I've seen at least one other photo of a painted rack number on an Enfield butt stock.  It was a Pakistani rifle, but it was painted on far more carefully.  
  • I've seen writing by two Enfield experts that dispute whether the machinery sent to Pakistan was BSA or Faz.  One of them claims that all the Faz. tooling was still stored in a bunker in England.  
  • If this is Pakistani, would the Savage bolt be correct, or added later?
  • Any ideas who would have scrubbed the markings, and why?  I have one handgun that had South African Defense Force markings on it that someone partially scrubbed (same U.S. importer, BTW).  I wonder if someone was trying to hide the fact that the firearms went through South Africa--perhaps for political or other reasons?  Did the U.S. ever put an embargo against importations from South Africa?
 
Old, fat, balding guy ... that narrows it down, right?
Back to Top
Alan de Enfield View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 01 2009
Location: Eastern England
Status: Offline
Points: 231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan de Enfield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 4:55am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Royal Ordinance Factory Fazakerly (a suburb of Birmingham in the midlands) opened in 1942.

Your UK geography is about as good as my US geography.
 
The Fazakerly factory was in Liverpool - not Birmingham.
The Birmingham factories were BSA, with other factories around the rest of the UK(ie Maltby - Yorkshire, and Enfield at Enfield - nr London.)
 
The Fazakerly, Maltby and Enfield factories were ROF's (Royal Ordnance Factories) ie Government owned whilst BSA was a private (for profit) enterprise.
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Online
Points: 13002
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 5:37am
As always I stand corrected.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Canuck View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Agassiz BC
Status: Offline
Points: 3008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 6:26am
Great thread guys!
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.