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Any Antlered Deer

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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 5:22am
I bought a box of 168 TMKs last year and planning to try them in my DCRA 7.62 conversion, but have not had the chance yet. 

 Quite a different profile than the 168 SMK.  The TMK has a shallower boattail and a secant ogive vs the SMK tangent ogive.  These changes give a significant increase in BC and the TMK supposedly remains stable out past 1000 yds.

I suspect the TMK would have to be seated out longer than the SMK to get the bullet close to the lands. A secant ogive can be more sensitive to amount of bullet jump.  

168 TMK on left, 168 SMK on right. I’m expecting I won’t be able to load the TMK to magazine length and be anywhere near the lands in my Long Branch 7.62 barrel. That’s what I found with the 175 gr TMK.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 6:50am
I personally believe that the Faux L8A5T prefer the heavier bullet. 
You mentioned seating it out as far as possible. The Vulkan round has a C.O.L. of 2.705" and the Sierra round has a C.O.L. of 2.795" and yet the Vulkan dedicated hunting round showed considerably more consistency on overall performance against a dedicated target round. I too have both the 168grn TMK and SMK projectiles and when used in my Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle, cannot tell the difference between the two when out paper punching with both producing sub-moa groups, and yet when applied to the Enfield, the groupings become less than satisfactory. I took twenty shots with the 168grn TMK's and twenty with the 180grn Vulkans to run a comparison check. The averaged spread measured both horizontal and vertical for the 168grn Sierra TMK's while using the Enfield was 1.870" whereas the same averaged spread for the heavier flatbased projectile measured in at 1.335". My daughter summed it up best by saying, "Its like if you were to throw a baseball and then throw the baseball bat and end up having the baseball bat do better by going farther, faster and more accurately." I had her repeat what I had done to eliminate any bias and the results where better than mine but still the same regarding the performance of the TMK's, dismally. I do have some 167grn Lapua Scenar-L projectiles that, in appearance look no different than the Sierra MK but perform far more reliably and consistently and yet again, will not produce the desired results that the 180grn Vulkan baseball bat delivers when used in the Enfield. Again, I personally believe it performs better with heavier bullets. Nothing more, nothing less...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 7:11am
From left to right and in order of performance from good to bad using the 7.62mm barreled Enfield. 
180grn FB Vulkan, 167grn Lapua Scenar-L, 168grn Hornady Secant, 168grn SMk, 168grn TMK Secant. 
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 8:23am
With that truncated tip and tangent ogive on the Vulcan, it is much closer to the lands than the TMK at the OALs you are using.  You would need to seat the TMK out past 2.8 in, probably around 2.95 inches to get close enough to the lands in a Long Branch 7.62 barrel to realize the accuracy potential.  Your barrel probably has a lot less rounds thru it than mine, so you may get the TMK close enough to the lands around 2.9 inch OAL. 

The flat base may be helping here too. There is really not much difference in weight from a 168 to a 180 gr, 12 gr, a 7% increase.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:21am
The accuracy potential is currently there with what is basically a 180grn Norma factory load without having to fiddle about with trying to figure out how close to the rifling i can get before worrying about pressure issues. The 7.62mm Enfield is a shooter and a good one at that but in all honesty, my No4Mk1 Maltby shooting the 200grn D166 7.62x54R bullets will run circles around it hands down.
My initial aim when building the Faux L8A5T was not to create a full house racegun but rather, an all weather rifle. Capable of maintaining consistent accuracy out to a maximum of 200 yards for use in general midsize game hunting applications. The findings from yesterday's shooting session confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that when using a 180grn brick loaded to standard specifications, the accuracy is well maintained.
As far as accuracy potential goes? My .243W chambered Weatherby Vanguard can make a 12" metal plate dance @1500 yards...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:36am
Right.  You have a good load with that 180 gr. and it’s going to fit the bill for your intended purpose.  

It’s that new 168 TMK that is interesting me, for a much different reason.  

For grins, I took a pic of two cartridges, both are seated for OAL magazine length of 2.80 inches.  The issue created by that long pointy TMK bullet with secant ogive becomes quite apparent here.   And, the base of the TMK bullet is also much deeper in the case (by another 0.151 inches) which itself could cause pressure issues near max load.  

The red horizontal line is at the ogive tangent point on the SMK.  Shifting that position over to the TMK is at a point where the TMK bullet diameter is only .293 (vs .308 for the SMK).  That may well explain the mediocre accuracy you noted with the TMK.

When I finally get around to loading these TMKs up for my DCRA, I’ll try and get the bullet between 0.010 to 0.015 off lands, not sure if that will be possible…




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:52am
Another point of contention with me and the 168grn TMK's is the difference in actual bullet weights. Out of a box of 500 I have 220 that weigh exactly 168grn, with 142 weighing between 168.2 - 168.5grns with the remaining weighing between 167.8 - 167.3grns. My only thought on this is that it had something to do with the sectional density of the lead core. At this time, I would gladly trade off for a box of the Sierra 168grn BTHP bullets...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 11:00am
If I can get the TMK to shoot well, I’ll offer you up a trade.  Not sure when that will be, I’m looking to use it at 800 yds and beyond.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2022 at 12:06pm
You might check out the Sierra 165 Gr Gameking HP.
It was the preferred bullet for accuracy in both my M1a Match & my Remington 700.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 6:42am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

You would need to seat the TMK out past 2.8 in, probably around 2.95 inches to get close enough to the lands in a Long Branch 7.62 barrel to realize the accuracy potential.  Your barrel probably has a lot less rounds thru it than mine, so you may get the TMK close enough to the lands around 2.9 inch OAL. 
The farthest out I can seat both the 180grn Vulkan and the 168grn Sierra TMK without interfering with reliable magazine feeding is 2.830". Anything past that and I end up with a single shot rifle. The same applies to my Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle as well. I did find it intriguing that the C.O.L. for the Military M852 Match round is also 2.830". The potential for improved accuracy is there if I choose to hand feed each round one at a time. There is also the inherent risk of increased chamber pressures the closer the bullets are to the rifling as well and I for one do not intend to destroy a rifle such as this one just to get my groupings a tad closer than they are now. I will however be testing the TMK's this coming weekend to determine if the new C.O.L. has any marked improvements over the old... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 7:59am
2.83 probably won't make much difference from 2.80.  However, let us know how it shoots.  

I would not seat further out unless you check with a OAL throat gage first.  No telling what that barrel has for a throat length.  I have checked my CA 7.62 barrel, and the throat is long, even the 175 gr SMK needed to be seated well past magazine length to get even reasonably close to the lands.  As long as you are at least 0.010 off the lands, your not going to destroy the rifle.  And peak pressures will be lower with the bullet seated out further.  But, if you jamb it up into the lands, that's risky...

For my application, I really only can single shot feed the rifle; I'm just looking for target accuracy.  The TMK was designed for that purpose, long range in particular. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 10:29am
This is one of those times that the phrase, "It is what it is" applies spot on. The rifle can and does place projectiles in rather small groups out to distances of no greater than 300 yards and that's really all that matters to me. (The throat on this barrel is .010" longer than my Rugers with both rifles having exactly 775 rounds through them to date.) The target accuracy will have to be relegated to my Japanese made .243W Weatherby Vanguard with the Cold-Forged barrel...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieShooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:11pm
I reckon you have a great combo there.  If you do your part you'll eat well! I live in IL where we cannot use a rifle, we must use a shotgun with slugs.  Even though a slug will humanely take a deer at 150-200 years, I wont shoot that far and my sweet spot being around 50-75 yards.  Hopefully you can draw them into the "other side" of a clearing, about 50 yards away.  I pulled a tag for November, hope I can use it.    Good luck!
"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by AussieShooter AussieShooter wrote:

I reckon you have a great combo there.  If you do your part you'll eat well! I live in IL where we cannot use a rifle, we must use a shotgun with slugs.  Even though a slug will humanely take a deer at 150-200 years, I wont shoot that far and my sweet spot being around 50-75 yards.  Hopefully you can draw them into the "other side" of a clearing, about 50 yards away.  I pulled a tag for November, hope I can use it.    Good luck!
I have cousins in and around Bloomington, Cookeville, Ellsworth, and Normal. My one cousin in Ellsworth has a 50 acre patch of land that he takes his deer from when he gets his tag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:52pm
I worked in Iowa for six months in '07. Got to know the guys at the plant pretty good. Was surprised that they too can only use shotguns in deer season. I asked why and was told safety reasons (hitting a farm house). I looked around... this part of Iowa was as flat as Saskatchewan! You could watch your dog run away for three days! There might have been four farm houses in ten square miles! Some BIG corn fed whitetails though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AussieShooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2022 at 4:26pm
Yep, you could fire a rifle in Iowa and it would land in Indiana before hitting anything!  I head to southern Illinois where it is actually hilly and the Shawnee forest produces some big white tails!
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