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Bayonet lugs on a 7.62?

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Sinnlover View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 11 2021 at 10:25am
Hi All,
As per my introduction post in the new members section, I discovered this forum when doing a little research on a rifle I own.

I wonder if anyone here can answer a few questions I have about it?

The rifle in question is a Fazakerly No4 Mk2, dated 49. It is in 7.62 not .303 and it has a sterling magazine. When I purchased the rifle I thought it was a Sterling conversion however, one thing that has stumped me is the bayonet lugs...

Does anyone know if the sterling conversion barrels had bayonet lugs? The lugs fit an No4 ‘pig sticker’ perfectly and it keeps the bayonet in place when firing. 

In addition it still has the extractor screw in place unlike other 7.62 rifles that use the mag lips to aid extraction. Is this another trait of the sterling conversion? 

A few guys have had a look at the rifle when on the range and they are stumped as to what it is. I have also spoken to a guy who worked at the Enfield Factory and he didn’t have a clue either.

There are no L8 markings on the rifle.

I am still leaning towards it being a Sterling Conversion but I thought I would ask here to see if anyone may be able to help.

Thanks in advance

John 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2021 at 5:27pm
I will chime in on this one.
The Sterling conversion used a Sterling magazine and marked as such. It also has no lip for extractions. A modification was done to the reciever to assist that. The barrels as far as I know had no bayonet lugs. However, I do know that as you have indicated that, the L8 series of rifles had bayonet lugs. I recently purchased a new/unissued No4 barrel in 7.62x51mm NATO and it has the bayonet lugs.  It was manufactured by Canadian Arsenal.  You will need to look for any stamps on the barrel near the knox form for an clue as to manufacturer. The magazine on the right is a Sterling magazine and the one on the left is a L42A1 magazine with the lip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2021 at 6:11pm
Something you can look for if it is a L8 barrel would be if it has a experimental 6 groove right hand twist rifling. Many of the L8 barrels were made by Canadian Arsenal and some have been noted to not have bayonet lugs.  They were made of chromium molybdenum alloy and have a hard chromium plated chamber.  "Ian Skennerton quote."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinnlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2021 at 1:25am
Thank you. I will take a couple of pictures and post them here if anyone is interested? 
The mag is identical to the sterling mag pictured but it will take L42 mags as well. The rifling is 6 grove right hand twist. Identical to the picture of the muzzle above 
To be fair it’s almost identical to your Rifle Goosic bar the scope, it even has the cheek rest fitted. 
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I hoping these pictures work - it’s not a museum grade rifle but it goes bang and is pretty accurate (enough for me anyway)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinnlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 7:32am
I am guessing the post with my pictures in didn't work! - back to the drawing board for me!  I will work it out and post some.

The mag is identical to the sterling mag pictured but it will take L42 mags as well. The rifling is 6 grove right hand twist. Identical to the picture of the muzzle above 
To be fair it’s almost identical to your Rifle Goosic bar the scope, it even has the cheek rest fitted. It has also been taped for a scope at some point - not a no32 scope though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 10:08am
FWIW my charnwood conversion did not have bayonet lugs , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinnlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 11:59am
I found a full length picture of it with my Mini 14 on my iPad, I have taken the awful varnish off it now and recoiled it giving it a much nicer finish. I would love to get to the bottom of its origins. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 1:15pm
I would think that U.K. rifle clubs were also converting No. 4 .303 rifles to 7.62 target shooting rifles by the late 1950’s as they did in Canada, prior to the L39/Envoy being available.  Although, I thought those were done at Enfield, perhaps there were retired Armourers doing this as well for club members.  Such a conversion done for private use probably would not have the L8 redesignation markings on the receiver.  

Any indication of who made the barrel?  Long Branch 7.62 barrels are stamped CA (Canadian Arsenals) and also have 7.62 stamped near the muzzle.  Skennerton mentions several different manufacturers of 7.62 barrels that were the same weight as the .303 barrel.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinnlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 1:30pm
Unfortunately the only markings on the barrel are those picture above, nothing on the muzzle 
I think it’s highly likely it’s a rifle cub conversion, it’s the lugs that are baffling me though.
I think I need to get hold of a copy of Skennertons book. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Sinnlover Sinnlover wrote:

Unfortunately the only markings on the barrel are those picture above, nothing on the muzzle 
I think it’s highly likely it’s a rifle cub conversion, it’s the lugs that are baffling me though.
I think I need to get hold of a copy of Skennertons book. 
The barrel in my photo has never been on a rifle until very recently. It has a very tiny Canadian Arsenal stamp on it with a 61 next to it. It has bayonet lugs as well. Ian Skennerton states that: 
A special barrel was developed for the Enfield L8 rifles, of chromium molybdenum alloy steel, it also had a hard-chromium plated chamber. The new 7.62mm barrel rifling has a right hand twist and in 1961, 6 groove rifling was used experimentally for the 7.62mm barrel. Many of the conversions were done at Enfield. The bayonet lugs were retained as such with some rifles having them omitted. The L8 series was discontinued due to discrepancies within. Another program was developed to find a suitable sniper riflefrom the original No4 model. The end result being the L39/42A1 rifles...
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Cheers, I will have a look tomorrow when the light is better, I will also put a light down the chamber to see what it looks like, from memory it is light in colour and of a different material to the .303 No4 my father owns. I Might need to give it a clean first through, it’s filthy.
The barrel is a six groove with right hand twist. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 2:29pm
What is the serial number if you wouldn't mind please...
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It’s PF163055
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2021 at 5:36pm
There are some electro stencil marks on the flatside of the reciever as well. Could you get a photo of that too please. Include a clear shot of that pin in front of where the ejector screw used to be as well please.
The serial number indicates that it was made at Maltby and at some point in time it went through a FTR and had the Mk1/2 upgrade done as well. Something about that double struck F has me bothered as well as that P stamped in front of the trigger guard screw. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinnlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2021 at 1:07am
I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this.
I thought it was a Fazakerly rifle built as a Mk2, always will to be corrected though. 
I have taken a few more pictures this morning - it’s more interesting than starting work! 
It’s pretty grim here at the moment and the light is poor so hopefully the details come out in the pictures, I have had to take them in the kitchen as this is the brightest place. 

 
















The electro pencil marks as follows 
No4 MK2 (F)
12 49 PF163055 
The bolt has the matching serial number. 
I have also included a picture of the chamber and inside the mag well along with the pin both inside and out.

Once again thank you for taking the time to help me.

John 
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