Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Rifles
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - DCRA #4/MK1*  7.62
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

DCRA #4/MK1* 7.62

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Canuck View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Agassiz BC
Status: Offline
Points: 2833
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: DCRA #4/MK1* 7.62
    Posted: May 13 2020 at 6:32pm
I received as a gift from a good friend a 1942 Long Branch DCRA 7.62 rifle (Canadian Arsenals) with fore end. Serial# stamped 1539 on both barrel and action. The 4 groove right hand twist rifling is crisp and mirror bright. The fore end has had fiberglass resin packing at the mid point and behind the recoil lugs, plus a steel washer inserted into a slot above the king screw bushing hole. No bayonet lug and has a PH wide base sight block. This is my first rifle like this and I admit I am just learning. I have all the rest of the parts to complete the rifle minus the PH5C rear sight and front sight tube. I have a question about ammunition. Does commercially available .308 hunting ammo work in this configuration or only 7.62 NATO ammo? From what I have read this rifle with a regular #4 magazine is a single shot rifle. It does have a 7.62 extractor claw.
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 3634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2020 at 9:01pm
My honest and unbiased opinion is that commercial ammunition is an acceptable alternative to use. I have been using commercial and handloaded .308 rounds in both my converted No4 and No5 rifles to date,with absolutely no issues. 
Back to Top
Zed View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: May 01 2012
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2020 at 11:38pm
In the UK the 7.62 NATO L39 and L42 are proofed to 19 tons per square inch. If declared as .308 they are re-proofed to 20 tons per square inch.
For my L39 I buy the .308 components; but load to them to lower NATO velocities. I did try a few different .308 factory loads when I bought it; and I chrono'd them to compare. Some of the .308 was 300 Ft/sec above the NATO 2650/2700 Ft/second figure.
Quite an increase in recoil too. There's so much .308 ammo around that you may find a suitable one, but avoid the heavy bullet and heavy loads combined.
Personally, I keep the loads down to not exceed 2600 Ft/second with the SMK155 grain bullet. That way I should not be over stressing the rifle.
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
Back to Top
The Armourer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: June 23 2019
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 437
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2020 at 11:43pm
Used 'sensibly' then there should be little problem.

These 'early' 7.62 rifles were designed to use the NATO ammunition of the time which was 144 - 155 grain bullets, if you start to use 'hotter' or heavier NATO bullets (or 308 Win) then you can get pressure problems developing.

In another forum where 7.62 No4 rifles were being discussed Brian d**k recently said :

"Guys who are serious shooters that want a 7.62 Lee Enfield should buy or build one on a No.4 action that isn't worn out. Even then, you're stressing them to the max so you must adhere to the military specification pressures. Those who want to push 168 and heavier projectiles at M118LR velocity, (yes, I've seen and repaired the results once. He was lucky.), are beating their old rifles to death. Stick with the 155 grain Palma Match SMK and you should be fine."

The commercial 308 is loaded to higher pressures than 'standard' 7.62 NATO and my recommendation would be to always use 'what it says on the tin'.

If it is a 7.62 NATO then use that, if it is a 308 Win, then use that.

Goosic is a very knowledgeable guy and knows his loading limits.





Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 3634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 12:09am
Thank you for those kind words.
My finalized tests using a mild charge of 41.7grns of IMR4064 loaded with the Sierra 168grn BTHP and inadvertently duplicating the Mexican Match round,showed as per my loading manual a CUP of a mear 40,450 and a PSI of 44,346.7. I used my No4Mk2 with the 2A1 7.62mm barrel and the average FPS chronographed came to 2680. The felt recoil was very well managed and no outwardly noticable issues with the cases which are Lake City brass made 9 years ago.
Back to Top
The Armourer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: June 23 2019
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 437
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 1:01am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Thank you for those kind words.
My finalized tests using a mild charge of 41.7grns of IMR4064 loaded with the Sierra 168grn BTHP and inadvertently duplicating the Mexican Match round,showed as per my loading manual a CUP of a mear 40,450 and a PSI of 44,346.7. I used my No4Mk2 with the 2A1 7.62mm barrel and the average FPS chronographed came to 2680. The felt recoil was very well managed and no outwardly noticable issues with the cases which are Lake City brass made 9 years ago.


No problem - Credit given where it is due.

My only reservations with using 308 is when the question is :

I have a question about ammunition. Does commercially available .308 hunting ammo work in this configuration or only 7.62 NATO ammo?

Great care should be taken in the selection of the rounds - when reloading you can, with experience and knowledge, load 308 for a 7.62 with no problems.
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1824
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 5:15am
I think Brian D. nailed it.  I figure I want my 7.62 converted rifles to last, so I load to .303 velocities with a 168 gr or 175 gr bullet.  I’ve just started some loads with the 155 Palma Match and I’ll report those results.  

Canuck, does this rifle have the 4 lb heavy barrel or the standard service weight barrel?  One of my conversions is SN 1523, a bit before yours,  it has the same forend bedding and main screw plate.  It should also have the conversion SN stamped on the bolt handle.  

My rifle shot very well, under 2 MOA prone in sling at 600 yards with my 168 gr SMK loads.  These rifles did not have a good reputation for accuracy when they first came out, but much of that was the 7.62 service ball ammunition being used in the matches, just not that good.  The focus was on the rifle, reinforcing straps were brazed to the left side of the receiver (my two conversions not have the strap).

These rifles were proofed at CAL (Long Branch), but I don’t know to what pressures.  They can certainly be used with 7.62 NATO ammunition, but I have chosen to use reloads with reduced pressures.  My standard load is 168 SMK, 40.0 gr Varget, WLR primer.  IMR 4064 is a close substitute for Varget.  


  






Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 3634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 7:23am
I think I might have nailed it too in regards to spending countless hours researching this 7.62 NATO vs 308 commercial debate by locating safe to use commercial ammunition in your converted to 7.62mm Enfield rifles.
Quote
(This is in regards to the back and forth between the 7.62x51mm and .308Win debate,commercial and handloads PSI readings.
A few weeks ago I had FedEx'd a commercially loaded 175grn Federal Cartridge Company 7.62/.308Win round and a 168grn personal handloaded.308Win round to an Armory here in town with the intentions of having both pressure tested in one of their testing facilities. 
(The commercial round is the exact same product supplied to the U.S.Military,using 41.7gr of IMR4064) 
My handload has exactly 41.7gr of IMR4064 as well. 
I explained my reasons and paid for the testing. I was emailed the results earlier today and was pleasantly surprised. 
The commercially loaded 7.62/308,(remember, this is the same crap supplied to the military) had a PSI of 45,937.5
My supplied handload had a PSI of 44,346.7
This is from one independent company and their findings and is not to be taken as an end all be all but makes for good cannon fodder when the debate arises again...) End quote. 
Back to Top
The Armourer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: June 23 2019
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 437
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 8:06am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

I had FedEx'd a commercially loaded 175grn Federal Cartridge Company 7.62/.308Win round and a 168grn personal handloaded.308Win round to an


Can you just confirm if this 'commercial' loaded cartridge was sold as a 7.62 or a 308.

I have not seen a great number of 'commercial' cartridge cartons as I use 7.62 in my 7.62 rifles but I have never yet seen a carton labelled with both 'calibres'.
Back to Top
Canuck View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Agassiz BC
Status: Offline
Points: 2833
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 8:09am
Thanks gentlemen, this really answered my question and then some!
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1824
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 8:32am
Yes, there are 7.62/.308 commercial loads well within the pressure limits of the No. 4 rifle.   There are also commercial .308 loads that exceed the .303 limits.  The SAAMI spec max pressure for the .308 is 62,000 psi vs 49,000 for the .303.  Not all commercial .308 is loaded to the same pressures, but they must not be over the specified max pressure for that cartridge.  You just have to know what your feeding it.  I would avoid high velocity heavy bullet hunting loads, especially if your out in the rain, you will stress the action of a No. 4 rifle.  

Interestingly, the Mk 7 cartridge was loaded to 43,680 psi (nominally), the pressure will vary depending on the powder or cordite being used to attain the specified velocity.  These rifles aren’t getting any younger, it you shoot a lot, don’t try to load for the rated max pressure, especially don’t load to .308 or 7.62 max pressure in a No. 4 rifle.  
Back to Top
Canuck View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: January 17 2012
Location: Agassiz BC
Status: Offline
Points: 2833
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 8:46am
thanks britrifles, I will heed your recommendations. I'll first try 150 grain cartridges and see how it performs (baby steps).
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 3634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 8:56am
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

I had FedEx'd a commercially loaded 175grn Federal Cartridge Company 7.62/.308Win round and a 168grn personal handloaded.308Win round to an


Can you just confirm if this 'commercial' loaded cartridge was sold as a 7.62 or a 308.

I have not seen a great number of 'commercial' cartridge cartons as I use 7.62 in my 7.62 rifles but I have never yet seen a carton labelled with both 'calibres'.
Yes I can confirm it is commercially sold 308 Winchester ammunition.  Look at the post titled Commercial 308 Ammunition listed in the reloading section here.
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1824
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 9:18am
Goosic has given us some valuable information here.  His 7.62 clone of the military 175 gr SMK long range load is only slightly higher pressure than .303 Mk 7 ball ammo.  Both are well within the capability of the No. 4 action.  And his data agrees with several reloading manuals and websites.  It’s always good to get real data to confirm our reloads.  

I found the throat in my 7.62 DCRA conversion was fairly long, a 168 gr SMK bullet seated to 2.80 inches was well back from the rifling.  This will likely give lower pressures than a test barrel would.  No way of knowing what reamer CAL used at the time.  

I reload Canadian made DA 7.62 NATO cases which tend to be thicker and heavier than .308 commercial cases, I drop a grain to account for the lower case volume when using .308 Win load tables.   Turns out I use the same powder and charge weight in .303 and 7.62 with 174 gr and 168 gr SMKs respectively.  

Canuck, please post a range report when you get out and test fire the rifle.  I’m curious how it will shoot, it seems to be nearly identical to my own.  Mine was a UF 56 Mk 2 Faz action.  



Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 12041
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 9:22am
The only .308 I'd avoid would be the "specialty loads" like the "light Magnum", the "Managed Recoil" & so on.
Any standard FMJ, SP, BT, or HP should be fine.I just don't know how they achieved those things or that the actions were ever proofed with them.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 3634
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2020 at 9:42am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Yes, there are 7.62/.308 commercial loads well within the pressure limits of the No. 4 rifle.   There are also commercial .308 loads that exceed the .303 limits.  The SAAMI spec max pressure for the .308 is 62,000 psi vs 49,000 for the .303.  Not all commercial .308 is loaded to the same pressures, but they must not be over the specified max pressure for that cartridge.  You just have to know what your feeding it.  I would avoid high velocity heavy bullet hunting loads, especially if your out in the rain, you will stress the action of a No. 4 rifle.  

Interestingly, the Mk 7 cartridge was loaded to 43,680 psi (nominally), the pressure will vary depending on the powder or cordite being used to attain the specified velocity.  These rifles aren’t getting any younger, it you shoot a lot, don’t try to load for the rated max pressure, especially don’t load to .308 or 7.62 max pressure in a No. 4 rifle.  
 
Commercial 7.62/308 loads well within the pressure limits of the No4 rifle. There are also 308 commercial loads that exceed the 303 limits. Why would they NOT exceed the limits of 303 pressures? If the rifle is chambered for a totally different cartridge then that of a 303B the pressure will in fact be different.  If DCRA, Charnwood and Enfield themselves converted their supply of No4 actions to fire 7.62mm ammunition and as such, reproofed them to a higher pressure rating why the hesitation in using commercial ammunition? Why not load to 7.62/308 specifications if in fact the rifle is chambered for that cartridge? It's like trusting in a Lord and Savior that you are told exists but you have never seen it but if someone just painted a bench and put a sign on it that says WET PAINT you're still going to touch the bench because you don't believe what you actually see.
I have in fact in earlier posts,dedicated myself to researching the differences between the 7.62 NATO and the commercial variant sold as 308 Winchester and everything I have posted in regards to that is a matter of fact based information.  I even went as far as paying to have pressure tests done to confirm what I was already confirmed of from my previous research which I chose to share with you folk. I have only been on this forum for a few short  years now and I have enjoyed  my time here. I liked that I could share my knowledge with you especially if I though the group could and would benefit from the shared information and I had enjoyed the responses.  This one instance however has me at a crossroads however and i believe my time here has come to a close. I have shared everything I can in regards to 7.62 vs 308 and I have supplied every ounce of information supplied to me to you yet, I am either ignored,overlooked,or questioned to reconfirm what I have in fact already confirmed.  I have not shared misinformation for any nefarious reasons. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.