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Enfield .22 training rifle caliber?

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tinsmith1812 View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 24 2014 at 11:16pm
he!!o, New to this site, having just purchased a nice No5 Mk1 Jungle Carbine.

A friend just purchased a Lee-Enfield No3 rifle dated 1918. It has been converted to a single-shot training rifle. He brought it over the other day and we shot it with .22 Long Rifle ammunition. Accuracy was terrible! I think I can throw rocks with more accuracy. I was suspicious when a standard .22 cleaning jag wouldn't pass through the bore. I then fired a .22 short into a five gallon pail filled with water. The recovered bullet measured .196 diameter and the bullet was swaged out to almost .5 inches long! A standard .22 bore should be around .222 to .223 diameter. Is there some obsolete small bore rimfire cartridge that this rifle was chambered for? I've never encountered anything like this!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SW28fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 2:29am
No clue here there was a 23 cal sub caliber training round but that was for martinis. Could it be intense fouling?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tinsmith1812 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 2:59am
I used my .17 cal. air rifle cleaning rod to run a couple of patches down the bore of the rifle. The bore wasn't perfect, but the rifling was strong. When I looked through the bore from the breech-end, there is a definite step where the chamber ends (unlike a modern .22 LR). It appears that someone has re-chambered this approximately .20 cal barrel to fit modern .22 ammo. He just got this rifle from one of our major importer-dealers. If it's not right, I hope he can get an exchange or his money back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 3:08am
Apart from .22 LR I have not heard of any other training calibre for SMLE. ( although I am not an expert!) Is the conversion a .22 liner inside the original barrel, or a replacement barrel? If it is a tube liner, I can only think that there maybe some corrosion between the outer barrel and the liner, which would deform it. The end of the barrel will be marked PARKERIFLED if it's liner in the bored out .303 barrel. 
I have a No2MKIV* which is a later production Lithgow made rifle, and it shoots very well. Generally these are good accurate rifles so I would say get it looked at by a professional. It is worth it because these rifles are a getting hard to find and are  great fun to shoot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 8:10am
OK , welcome to the site tinsmith1812 , there is a few things we need to figure out on this one before it will make sense , but first off is it really a no3 ?[P1914 rifle ?] ....or is it a 1918 dated mkIII* ? 

assuming its an SMLE is it a lithgow rifle ? i know there were a lot of interesting cartridge conversions there , it may be one of those , is it possibly a .17 cal rimfire ? 

the 22cal trainers were marked that ...is it so marked ?

how about some photos ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaxP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 2:34pm
More likely it has lead deposited from many thousands of rounds through it without proper cleaning. I found this with one of my trainers, (converted to .22RF in 1914) It wouldn't group 6" at 25 yards. The bore looked ok from what I could see, but a little off shiny. I would shoot it until warm then patch and bronze brush it out in an attempt to bring the bore up without using a cutting compound. One day a spiral of lead came out of it about 6" long! From there more lead came out and eventually the barrel was clear and under the fouling, very bright and sharp. It now shoots about an inch at 25 yards, better with certain ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 9:05pm
It sounds like a prime candidate for those electrical lead dissolving kits to me!
Can you see any rifling if you look through the bore? A friend of mine has a .33rf cowboy six shooter for his kids to plink with. Being kids a brick of ammo lasts about an hour & a half. One day they came to us asking why the gun "didn't shoot anymore" (It was getting 2' groups @25 ydsShocked ). they'd shot it so much there was zero rifling visible & we had to scrub the living daylights out of it to get back the actual boreOuch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tinsmith1812 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 10:50pm
oops, I'm new to Lee Enfield nomenclature! My friend's rifle is a MkIII* SMLE. The rifle barrel has been bored-out and lined. I did notice that it was also marked .410. Next time I see the rifle, I'll look for other markings. I will use a chemical lead remover on the bore and see what happens. Hope I can help him out as he is quite disappointed in this rifle. Thanks for the input!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longbow14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2014 at 11:09pm
there are a few "gallery" cartridges that could be floating around. very interesting either way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 12:32am
.410 is a shotgun conversion, nothing like a .22 RFWacko Definitely something funky going on there. Might it have been converted twice, once to a .410 shottie & then tubed down to a .22?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tinsmith1812 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 4:59am
My friend called Samco-Global and the customer service gunsmith said that these rifles are small bored compared with U.S. .22 rifles. He suggested we examine the muzzle crown and re-crown it if necessary. He said that if not satisfied, to call back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 9:14am
first off - thank you i figured it was a mkIII* , that is its original configuration , its always best to use correct nomenclature , and that said this rifle has now been converted to a no2 mkIV* trainer - technically , 
and ....." Might it have been converted twice, once to a .410 shottie & then tubed down to a .22?" ....i think this to be true if its got that marking , i own an 1888 enfield martini mkIV that went to bonehill for conversion to 22cal miniature , then somewhere along the way got converted to a 12ga custom trap shotgun , 

as to samco-global's response i think you will get argument here that he knows nothing - it is not one of the old rook rifle cartridges that he is suggesting , if it is a trainer it is in fact a 22cal LR cartridge rifle , its what the were made as , 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 11:21am
My 22 trainer is from Samco!! I love it !! I did get the one with the 22 barrel and not a sleeve!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 12:11pm
not condemning samco-global as much as i am the guy they hired that would give that kind of bad info - unless he knows this is not a real trainer and was sleeved to some other caliber ? a lot of BS gets put out there , we cannot allow it to stand unchallenged , 

all of the trainers were 22cal LR , they were not made in the obscure rook rifle calibers of rimfire ammo , 

i suppose the one thing i have not factored into this discussion is that not one photo has been offered of markings or even configuration of the rifle , so maybe im depending far too much on the statements without evidence of the facts , that said ill hold off on any other comments 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 12:47pm
Mine is not sleeved, they did advertise a sleeved one and a non sleeved one..I ordered the non sleeved one...Very happy with it. Now it may not be a true trainer , Im not saying it is ..but its not sleeved. and as for other calibers...I dont recall or have seen any other caliber Enfield offered by Samco in the last 10 years other than these 22 cals.
And I follow Samco on a regular basis for fire arms !!!  Which nowadays is not good !! Most of which they have are barreled actions now!!
I Bought my Adopted Sons Mauser through them before he deployed to Iraq, it was in pristine condition...
Im not trying to stir up anything here, just letting every one know My experience with Samco over the years !!
I also have a Spanish Mauser in 7.62x51 NATO that I have had for 24 years now! it came from Samco...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybridfiat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2014 at 8:47pm
Good luck getting this sorted.
I trained with the Australian Cadets and then CMF and we would meet cadets from other towns who trained with the .22s. We thought they were wimps as we had only ever been allowed to shoot the .303s.
I never thought the .22s would ever be sought after as we despised them and no one wanted one when they were demobbed and sold off. Too heavy for kids and too underpowered for an adult.

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