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Fire Forming .303 to .Enfield .410 shot shell

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White Rhino View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 8:49am
You bdont ammeal before fire formimg...
Nothing over powder except the wad you are using.
any old T-shirt and make it fit tight in the shell.
Dont know if it works better or not , that is what Cookie Monster wanted at the time.
 Look back at the forum and see what we used...I would have to do the same thing since I dont remember at the time ....Des is saying 15 grains at this time....
OK Im going to go drink More BEER!!!!!
"White Rhino"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moriflegirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 9:08am
Thanks much for the info.   Have a HUGE bucket of 303 that we're getting ready to reload, so will have lots of brass to use (also have a 1942 No1 MkIII* Lithgow and an unidentified No4 (marks are filed off!), so we're gearing up to start reloading.

Have a beer for me while you're at it, I only have one Guinness in the fridge.Cry
It's life, we all get through it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2009 at 12:28am
Originally posted by moriflegirl moriflegirl wrote:

Hi Guys

I just got a .410 Ishapore conversion (1913 No1 Mk III Enfield, converted 1932).  She cam with 20 loaded shells, but of course that's no where near what I want to have some fun.  So a few quick questions, since you guys know what you're doing (or at least in the fireforming case Tongue.
1.  Did you anneal the brass before the first wad shot?  If so, what method?
2.  Do you use anything other than the wad over the powder?
3.  It looks like you use an old towel or t shirt as a wad.  Which and about what size?
4. Once you have the final shape, it looks like you use a plastic 410 wad, rather than fiber wads.  Is that the case?  If so, does it work better than a nitro card and fiber wads, or is it just easier?
5.  What sort of powder / shot load do you use for the final .410 shell?

Sorry about all the questions, but you two are the first I've found that are actively fireforming and shooting a .410 Enfield.  Thanks in advance for any advice.

 
If I recall correctly we used 7grs Blue Dot with a large rifle primer. We did not anneal the brass. We used Remington plastic shotgun wads over the powder and seal with wax. We used old tee shirt for wadding when it was fire formed. It may take three or for times before the brass is completely fire formed. Small fiber wads may work better because you could get more shot and powder in the case. Good luck and enjoy your afternoon of fire forming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2009 at 4:51am
OK I used some paper napkins over the powder on the first try. wich on some of the shells I needed to do one more load... I took 2 of the shells and made some shot over cards put 14 grns of Blue dot with shot (7.5 ) over the shot over cards and stopped the shot just under the neck and then shot over cards over the shot. I used about 8 shot over cards over the powder.
Shot them once and was able to fit the shot gun wads in the shell the next time around.
I made My own shot over cards with arc punches... You can go to one of the cheap tool stores and find a set I found mine at a flea market that hade some tools.
or you can look in one of the cheap tool Mags like habor frieght or the like....
I made some for my .38 speicial for one of my Old Army Buddies... I was able to get 38 7.5 size shot in the .38 special round with a card over the shot and sealed with wax....
"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vriell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 11:35pm
Thanks for a very interresting topic.I am new on the forum living in South Africa,Hermanus ( Whale City ) and i am also busy getting ready for fire formed .303 shells for my savage 24 -22/410. I am also a Proud Owner of a Lee Enfield .303 and havin a lt of fun with the old timer . I have a Q regarding the primer to be used while reforming as well as loading afterwards.Can i use shotgun primers ( Like the cci 209 ) if i can make it fit to the .303 shell ? I also know that our powders are not the same as the rest and would be difficult to compare but can i use the prescribed powder according to our powder  for the 410 shotgun with this primer, see table attached.Hope i am not doing anything wrong with this posting .I am looking forward to any ones comment.
Africa Greetings
 
Len from Africa      "Just because I've never done something b4, doesn't mean I can't do it" Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vriell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 11:41pm
O i forgot to mention the reason why i want to use a diffrent primer because i am making use of Mil shells andthe only way to get the primer out is by drilling.I tested it already with a .303 shell in the savage with no shot and seems to work fine.It just fit and not to tight and easy to remove and change the primer.
Len from Africa      "Just because I've never done something b4, doesn't mean I can't do it" Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 4:28am
With the light loading the primer should not make that much difference You should still use caution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 7:18am
If you Have a way to get the primer pocket drilled out so you can use the shot shell primer let Me know ....
I was looking into that just because I have so many  spent Mil-Surp cases .....
They have a tit as an anvil ..dead in the center .. so drilling them out from the out side is not that great ... I was thinking of going through the neck .. and getting a sleeve that was sized for the neck to keep it centerd..... I could start with a small bit and then finish from the out side with a larger Bit .
But the shot shell primer looks like it should work .. Just may need to use some thing if it ends up being to large of a primer pocket ..... foil or some thing .. Belzona if you can get small quantity ..... would probably do also ....
If you do try what I am talking about , do so at your own risk .....I was mearly talking about what I wanted to try ......
"White Rhino"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 9:07am
Rhino I have the dies and drill for that, works on brass and steel cases
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vriell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 3:16pm
Thanks for the reply from everyone.Happy to know that the primer should work with the said powder but will still start with a low amount of powder and  work it up with caution.
Rhino what i did was to first secure the shell in the vice of my press drill.I took i think a no. 10 socket and ( I will have a look and report back) clamp this in the vice with the socket hole up and with presswood or anything that can form for that matter to secure the socket from "dancing"  in the vice.Now the shell fits perfect in the socket head up and because the shell is tapered it fits tighter while pressing to start drilling.I used a 6mm drillbit and it worked perfectly BUT once you have the drillbit centered you press down touching the shell on a fearly fast speed to make sure that your drillbit dont follow the little hole made by the firing pin.First it look like it is not 100% in the centre while drilling but keep drilling.Once you reach the primer pocket with the compressed "pocket rim" of the primer it follows the centre of the shell because the "pocket rim " is  harder than the shell and drill straight through without the "tit" being a problem at all.All you need to do after this is to ram the hole to just over 6mm to fit the primer in my case the cci 209 primer but suppose all the 12 gauge shotgun primers should be the same ? i think. Now do just enough countersink on the hole so that the primer fits flash to the shell.Caution not to overdo the "ramming" of the hole.Just enough so that when you press the primer in by hand that a space of about 1mm is left to press the primer in by "force" I tested it already in the savage 410 and work perfectly.Took a shot without load several time and worked well.It took me about 3 shells before i could get the drilling right but after that done 20 within a half an hour. I did the same with my Martini Henry shells and been loading with  shotgun primers for years without any problems( Need new martini shells now and unable to find some here in South Africa)Anyone with a solution ?.Hope all make sense.THIS WORKED FOR ME AND AND YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN DOING THE SAME .
Now off to the shop for some shotgun powder ( or can i use the powder that i use to charge my 9mm short(380 auto) for the forming process ?? Will go to my buddy's farm over the weekend and shoot some cloth  AND  have some beer  AFTER the shooting !!! On another forum i saw they are annealing before forming but if this is not necessary and wont damage the shells then i will try  without annealing.See http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html very interesting info.
Can't wait for Saturday.
 
Africa Greetings to all !
Len from Africa      "Just because I've never done something b4, doesn't mean I can't do it" Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vriell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 2:57pm
Try the fire forming Saturday but not successfull.Cracking open at the neck ( formed to size ) or no forming at all using same load.What could the cause be ? Used Fast burning pistol powder 3 gr with cloth.Wonder if because of the Mil shells ? Anyway will try again during the week after getting some slower burning powder for shotguns as i think this might be the problem.Maybe after getting the forming right will have to work out the powder load because making use of the shotgun primer looks like the primer sticking out on the inside of the shell to far and causing not ignite the powder completely ? Not sure if my finding is the right argument for my problem with reforming .
Len from Africa      "Just because I've never done something b4, doesn't mean I can't do it" Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cookie Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2009 at 12:30am

When Rhino and I fore formed we did not encounter any of those problems. I will have to give that some thought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reverend_Al Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2019 at 1:39pm
Here is what I've been using in my Ishapore .410 Musket ...

I sized and de-primed the cases (Norma) and then annealed them about 1/2 way down the body of the cases.

Then I re-primed them.

I loaded 8.0 grains of Nitro Trap 100 (since I have quite a bit of it, but any fast burning shotgun / pistol powder will work ... Red Dot, 700X, etc.) then seated a 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue with a piece of wooden doweling.

Fill to case mouth with bulk yellow cornmeal and top off with another 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue pressed into place with the wooden dowel.

At the range I aim the muzzle straight up into the air and fire-form.  I find that aiming straight up in the air gives me fire-formed cases that are square to the chamber and not "lop-sided".  Annealing first before fire-forming seems to help since I haven't split a single case yet (knock on wood!).

I haven't loaded any shot loads yet, but I have tried to duplicate the original round ball loading based on the wad columns shown in the military spec sheets.  I loaded 14.0 grains of Hercules (nown Alliant) 2400 powder, seated a .410 shotgun card wad, followed by two .410 shotgun fibre wads, then bulk yellow cornmeal to the case mouth (as a filler), then seated a .410" cast round ball and finished with a light roll crimp to hold it in place.  (I bought an RCBS double cavity mould so that I could cast my own full sized .410" round balls.  Black powder round balls that you can buy for muzzle-loading rifles are undersized at .390 to .395" and would be a "rattling" poor fit in the bore.)  I haven't tried any other loads yet, but these RB handloads of mine will stay on a standard rifle sighting in target at 50 yards fired from my smoothbore Ishapore Musket.

I'm going to try to duplicate the original military buckshot loading as well, but just haven't got to it yet.  I have some #2 sized lead shot and some #4 Buckshot that I can use for some test loads.  I'll doubtless try some shot loads at some point too.  I suspect that you'll get your best results using card and fibre wads in these reformed .303 brass cases since they are very thin-walled compared to plastic .410 shotshe!! hulls, and conventional .410 plastic wads will be undersized and a very loose fit in the brass cases.

Good luck with your project, and enjoy!





















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