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5thBatt View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 27 2014 at 8:24am
Vids as promised
Both vids start with the staggered charger in place the correct way up with the rims in front of each other, then inverted & 2 staggered charger loaded upside down so all rims behind each other
First one with my cutaway.



This second vid shows me cycling the action to show no rim locks as this cant be done with the cutaway due to lack of tension on the extractor due to cuts in the bolthead.



BTW all done with drill rounds, no live ammo.


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Shamu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2014 at 9:49pm
I'm impressed.
So why the instructions for loading the way they are as it works this way?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2014 at 6:02am
Don't really know Shamu, but a correctly loaded Charger _-_-_ seems to be the most stable, a staggered Charger the bottom round is very loose & will flop around & the rounds can tend to skew L & R when loading into the rifle, i stopped the staggered technique years ago as i found i had more trouble with it, in fact the inverted staggered charger (as in my videos) seems more reliable, but not as reliable as a correctly loaded Charger & good technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2014 at 10:37pm
I sure wish I could find a "cut away" version.
That is so cool!
Hoadie
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 3:44am
Maybe that it, its just a question of good & better rather than works & doesn't?

I remember being on a range where our ammo came in chargers, unusual as we usually got the 32 round boxes. The R/O caught some shooters re arranging the rims to staggered & went ballistic.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaxP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 4:31pm
There is a simple answer to the question. The chargers are loaded "one down one up" so it doesn't matter which way you put them in. If loaded "one over the next over the next..." and you get the charging bit slightly wrong then you will get a "rim over" jam.
The Enfield magazine is a magical box that can sort the rounds as you load them almost any way you like so the top rim is always in front of the rim below.
The catch comes when you exert pressure on the rounds in the wrong spot.
In 5th's vids he is standing over the action, rifle in a rest, and pushing straight down. Easy to see what you are doing, and easy to get it right. Now try it in a prone shooting position behind the rifle while presenting as small a target as possible to the enemy..... KEEP YER HEAD DOWN LADDIE!
The correct way in the musketry instructions is to put the thumb on top of the rounds and the tips of the fingers under the foreend beside the magazine and squeeze to load them. Doing this you can tend to let your thumb move forward away from the charger and put the pressure about the middle of the cartridge. This changes the angle the rounds approach the mag and can tend to tip them in point first, allowing the rims to miss the one underneath and ride rearward behind it.
It's easy to simulate. Try once with your thumb at the edge of the charger as far back as you can, then try again pushing down with your thumb in the middle or even further forward and
watch what a difference it makes to the attitude of the rounds. Yep, rim over jam!





Hey... just watching 5th's excellent vids again... note the charger is a little forward of the finished position of the rounds in the magazine. The magazine angle actually slides the round back a little the instant it clears the charger leaving next to no chance of the next round getting behind it! I think the magic I mentioned above has been revealed!

Loading with the thumb too far forward changes the angle of the follower and spring and does not allow the magazine to do this, making the next rim land behind the one below.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 5:46pm
MaxP sorry to tell you, your No1 has a savage sight on it:)

Thanks for the interesting post lads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muffett.2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 6:04pm
Stirrer, he only uses it to get a biteWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by muffett.2008 muffett.2008 wrote:

Stirrer, he only uses it to get a biteWink


Muffer the good news is, those sights go well in eBay:)
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5thBatt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by MaxP MaxP wrote:

There is a simple answer to the question. The chargers are loaded "one down one up" so it doesn't matter which way you put them in. If loaded "one over the next over the next..." and you get the charging bit slightly wrong then you will get a "rim over" jam.
The Enfield magazine is a magical box that can sort the rounds as you load them almost any way you like so the top rim is always in front of the rim below.
The catch comes when you exert pressure on the rounds in the wrong spot.
In 5th's vids he is standing over the action, rifle in a rest, and pushing straight down. Easy to see what you are doing, and easy to get it right. Now try it in a prone shooting position behind the rifle while presenting as small a target as possible to the enemy..... KEEP YER HEAD DOWN LADDIE!
The correct way in the musketry instructions is to put the thumb on top of the rounds and the tips of the fingers under the foreend beside the magazine and squeeze to load them. Doing this you can tend to let your thumb move forward away from the charger and put the pressure about the middle of the cartridge. This changes the angle the rounds approach the mag and can tend to tip them in point first, allowing the rims to miss the one underneath and ride rearward behind it.
It's easy to simulate. Try once with your thumb at the edge of the charger as far back as you can, then try again pushing down with your thumb in the middle or even further forward and
watch what a difference it makes to the attitude of the rounds. Yep, rim over jam!





Hey... just watching 5th's excellent vids again... note the charger is a little forward of the finished position of the rounds in the magazine. The magazine angle actually slides the round back a little the instant it clears the charger leaving next to no chance of the next round getting behind it! I think the magic I mentioned above has been revealed!

Loading with the thumb too far forward changes the angle of the follower and spring and does not allow the magazine to do this, making the next rim land behind the one below.

You are of course quite right about how i'm doing it in my video, but thats not how i normally do it or how i started to do the video, this was the only way i could do it to keep all in-shot, you should have seen the earlier attempts, the charging worked fine but the video was un-watchable. 

ETA as i said earlier it's all about your technique so practice until you can do it like you're "standing over the action, rifle in a rest, and pushing straight down." LOL

This is a short video i made to demonstrate that there is no need to remove the last Charger after loading 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2014 at 11:00pm
5thBatt, thanks for the videos! MaxP, thanks for that explanation. I had been wondering how the rounds would sort themselves out like 5thBatt had mentioned in that other thread and I just couldn't see it. Nice to have that cleared up in my mind now. Only about a million other things to clear up in there now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 12:48am
Thumb position is definitely critical. Anything too far forward just "cocks" the charger in the guides as they aren't a real tight fit.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 1:48am
Isn't the auxiliary spring supposed to line up the rounds correctly in the magazine? One time I replaced a flattened aux-spring and the rounds loaded perfectly after each cycle.
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 4:00am
I'll confess, I never figured out what it was supposed to do!
I had one break at the range once. It snapped right tat the "U" probably from using strong ammonia cleaners, which I did back then.
It took a while to find a replacement but I was able to carry on as though nothing had happened.

I've heard several "reasons" explained but the only one that made any sense at all was the protection of the mag's front wall from FMJ tips in recoil.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 4:34am
While it does help protect the front of the mag from impact from the projectiles (i have seem mags with little dents from such) its main function is to provide a smooth hard surface for the front of the follower to control it's travel up & down so that it's always presented at the correct angle to aid feeding from the mag, without it the front of the follower could get hung-up against the front of the mag, this would also apply to charging, you don't want the front of the follower snagging on its way down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2014 at 4:53am
Good explanation that makes total sense. Shamu and I have learned something new today about our rifles! Thanks 5th!
Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually
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