Improved group size.

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   I mentioned in a previous post that my No8mk1 had increased the group size after I had refurbished the wood. During my vacation I decided to investigate the problem. I found that the barrel up pressure on the barrel was excessive at over 7 lbs and the contact patch at the front fore end was off centre and the upper hand-guard was also solid on the barrel. I removed the high spot under the barrel to centre it at the front; removed some material to give a 0,010" clearance to the upper hand-guard. Fitted a shim under the trigger guard main screw (gasket paper 0,008") and also shimmed the clearance between the wrist and the woodwork which was over 0.025". The up pressure on the barrel is now 2,75 lbs. The range test was very satisfying.The lower RH target is from a sandbag rest at 50 metres before investigating; the lower LH target was with upper guard removed. The central C50 target was 50 metres from the prone position without sandbag rest after the modifications. I was very happy with these results, this group was the 3rd test of 10 shots,(the first two groups were also good but required a little elevation).

I would mention that I found some very useful information in a book I recently purchased written by New Zealander Roger Wadham; The 2012 Complete book of Lee Enfield Accurizing. Although the book does not deal with the no8's, the methods prove useful.

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Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Improved group size. Posted: May 12 2013 at 4:48am
	I mentioned in a previous post that my No8mk1 had increased the group size after I had refurbished the wood. During my vacation I decided to investigate the problem. I found that the barrel up pressure on the barrel was excessive at over 7 lbs and the contact patch at the front fore end was off centre and the upper hand-guard was also solid on the barrel. I removed the high spot under the barrel to centre it at the front; removed some material to give a 0,010" clearance to the upper hand-guard. Fitted a shim under the trigger guard main screw (gasket paper 0,008") and also shimmed the clearance between the wrist and the woodwork which was over 0.025". The up pressure on the barrel is now 2,75 lbs. The range test was very satisfying. The lower RH target is from a sandbag rest at 50 metres before investigating; the lower LH target was with upper guard removed. The central C50 target was 50 metres from the prone position without sandbag rest after the modifications. I was very happy with these results, this group was the 3rd test of 10 shots,(the first two groups were also good but required a little elevation). I would mention that I found some very useful information in a book I recently purchased written by New Zealander Roger Wadham; The 2012 Complete book of Lee Enfield Accurizing. Although the book does not deal with the no8's, the methods prove useful.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

muffett.2008 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 09 2011 Location: scone. nsw Status: Offline Points: 751	Post Options Post Reply Quote muffett.2008 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 12 2013 at 6:41am
	Nice result Zed.

paddyofurniture Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 7942	Post Options Post Reply Quote paddyofurniture Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 12 2013 at 6:51am
	Very nice.
	Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.

Sarge Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sarge Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 12 2013 at 9:00am
	Please don't forget that the size of the groups being shot, is not solely with the rifle. It is also effected by the firer... 1). Weapon holding. 2). Correct aim picture. 3). Same point of aim / line of sight. 4). Breathing control. 5). Trigger release. 6). The follow through after each shot. Also, to achieve a correct and more accurate assessment of a group, they should be shot at 100mtrs.
	This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!

Canuck Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: January 17 2012 Location: Cochrane, AB Status: Offline Points: 4021	Post Options Post Reply Quote Canuck Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 12 2013 at 9:29am
	Good points, Sarge.
	Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually

Sarge Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sarge Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 12 2013 at 9:53am
	Also... what I should have mentioned, is that an accurate grouping cannot be assessed, if, before adjustment, the weapon is fired supported / unsupported, then after adjustment, the weapon is fired using a different method. By doing so, inconsistencies are brought into play. The weapon should be fired both before and after adjustment by the same means = unsupported or supported. The reason for this, is due to the need to verify if the adjustment made was actually required for improvement, and if it actually made any improvement. If one is not consistent with ones course of actions, then all one is doing is chasing... thus compounding an error.
	This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 13 2013 at 2:06am
	Sarge, you are correct in your comments; After making the adjustments I should have used the same bag but needed to practice for a competition with this rifle which is next saturday, and our clubs "bag" was being used by a colleague. Here is a picture from my ammo test I did prior to removing the wood for renovation. Compare that to the groups after refitting and it is evident I had a real problem. I was happy with the group from the prone position, and our competitions are at 50 metres so thats why I train at that distance (and the fact that we don't have a longer range!!) It seems to be back to what it was now and good enough to compete with. Just hope I do my part on saturday. My wife is using the other No8 in the same competition! so no pressure
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Sarge Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sarge Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 13 2013 at 2:26am
	Zed... You've just illustrated a very valid point when target shooting... either setting up prior to, or during a shoot. Never rely on others for your prone supports. A backpack with a rolled up coat is perfectly sufficient, as long as the firer is comfortable. As your firing in the competition at '50mtrs', it makes sense to zero in at the range... if you have no space further out. Judging by the fall pattern.. 'vertical'.. you need to perfect your breathing = breath normal up to sighting... hold ones breath when on target... squeeze the trigger... follow through.. breath normal for sighting the next shot. You should hold your breath before firing for no longer than 5-seconds. If one does not fire during that time... breath out, relax, start again. if you don't already do the above, try it dry firing = no rds, just aiming and breathing. You'll be amazed at how your grouping will improve over time. Your use of ten rounds per sighting group seems a tad excessive, and not really necessary. Five shots is all that is required in order to estimate a group size.
	This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 13 2013 at 4:03am
	Sarge, interesting what you mention with regards to the breathing issue; and I am currently working on finding out what is best for me, some people say exhale fully and hold, but I find that less comfortable than just holding a normal breath. The time issue is also important and I have to try and ensure I don't hold my breath too long; particularly when shooting from the standing position. The small calibre class in or military rifle competitions requires 5 sighting shots prone, 10 shots prone (no additional support allowed) and 10 standing for max of 200. The standing position I find hardest and I am slowly improving my technique. I had been using the sling; but this year the rules say no slings so I have to adjust my hold on the rifle to suit.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

A square 10 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 16999	Post Options Post Reply Quote A square 10 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 13 2013 at 10:18pm
	nice shooting , looks like that one performs well for you

MaxP Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: March 21 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 184	Post Options Post Reply Quote MaxP Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 13 2013 at 11:01pm
	Begs to ask the question... why mess with it in the first place? I appreciate the whole "it's your rifle and you can do what you want with it" thing, but did you not consider the work may have an impact on it's accuracy? And now the fix will have had a more serious impact on it's value than the work as well... Yes, it is up to the individual, but if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 14 2013 at 1:52am
	IIRC his handguards were pretty messed up, appearance wise, so thats what he was inproving, the appearance.
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 14 2013 at 4:05am
	The rifle was covered in a thick varnish, which was not original and not pretty. So I decided to strip it back to the wood and then treat with BLO. There is another thread with photos of the rifle before and after. There were no modifications and the bedding technique and adjustments used to get it back to shooting well are standard methods. It's not fixing a broken rifle, just making the most of it's potential! I will be using this rifle for competitions so it's good to strip it, get to know what makes it work well and what doesn't. Plus, it was fun to learn something new and I'm happy with the result.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

MaxP Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: March 21 2013 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 184	Post Options Post Reply Quote MaxP Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 14 2013 at 5:25am
	Hats off to you for bringing it back to original finish, I did look but couldn't find your earlier post. Strikes me as strange what you have done would cause such a dramatic difference.... Well done in the end, though... and good luck against your misses!

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 15 2013 at 4:05am
	Before and after pictures of the rifle concerned, it's the one in the middle; with it's sister No8 that my wife uses and my No4 mk1/2. After the renovation of the woodwork. It's the lower one, it has the No5 type receiver. I think the work was worthwhile and I have enjoyed the experience of working out the problems and sorting them out. It's the best way to learn.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 15 2013 at 6:33am
	I'm going to dive in on the seperation of shooting prowess & firearm testing for accuracy, just because its one of those things that needs repeating every so often IMHO. The shooter & his ability (or lack thereof) is subject to a lot of internet discussion. Probably because the shooter is usually nowhere near a "jury of his peers" when actually shooting the group. We see the result, fequently teeny-tiny groups, but not how the group was actually achieved! Because of this I usually take unbelievable internet targets posts with a grain of salt. Heres how I do the testing of a firearm, as opposed to how I shoot. I use a solid benchrest, even if it is sometimes improvised & not one of those multi-adjustable cast iron thingies. I have a solid front support with a small sandbag atop the support, (frequently an ammo can, because it can be turned for different heights), so as to not get any barrel bounce from firing impulses. I use a bag under the heel of the stock also, which if I get it right, I can "pinch" to adjust for elevation. My left (off) hand does not touch the forend at all, it is bent at the elbow & comes back to me so the hand can manipulate the rear sandbag. I do not use the sling at all, except from checking it is completely loose when testing so it doesn't pull on the forend at all. Breathing I do several (3~4) deep inhale/full exhale cycles, then as I set up for the shot I take a last full breath & let it out slowly till I'm not at all "strained" but reasonably & comfortably full. If I position everything right the sight drifts down across the bull as I exhale & I stop as it sits on the bull. Thats when I take up first pressure on the 2-stage trigger. Once I'm done with final minor adjustments just add pressure till the trigger breaks & follow through. After every shot I reposition everything as exactly as possible. I also look away from the sights & look at anything else to relax the eyeball. I've found by loading the bloodstream with 02 fairly well in advance I have a longer "loiter time" when I actually set up to fire the test shot. This shows me how the rifle & ammo perform, usually making "internet boastable" target groups, but it doesn't really say anytrhing about how I shoot as I've removed myself from the equation as much as possible. Shooting is a different technique using no bag, no rest & a sling, but this shows up in the groups opening up to real world dimensions.
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)