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Criterion Barrel Throat

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britrifles View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 05 2020 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by 105GunGrunt 105GunGrunt wrote:


The bore of my No 4 looks good and a lead slug revealed the barrel had a lot of life left in it.

Are my expectations for this rifle just too high??

No, they are not.  In my experience on the firing line of the CMP VMR matches, the No. 4 will do every bit as well as a 1903.  You should have no trouble holding the 10 ring on the SR target with a high x count prone in sling.  

Are you using handloads in the No. 4?  

I had this problem with a M1 which had a brand new barrel installed by the CMP.    Turns out there was no rifling at all in one side of the throat, most likely from a bad finish reamer.  The bullet likely corkscrewed down the bore and out the muzzle.  A new barrel solved it, one I installed myself.  No way to say if the problem with your No. 4 is the barrel, but if you have eliminated everything else, then I would find myself a new barrel (Criterion or if you are lucky, a NOS or excellent condition original barrel).  






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 105GunGrunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 4:57pm
Here is what is driving my questions about the Criterion barrel, and whether to swap out my current barrel.

After I bought my No 4 I completely disassembled it and reassembled it starting on Page 1 of Wadham's book on accurizing the Lee Enfield.  I did a light bedding of the front and rear of the receiver and made sure I had a floating barrel with the 4-5# pressure from the forestock.  From a bench rest I am lucky to keep 10 rounds in the black (a 13" bullseye) at 200yds. 

I am comparing this to being able to keep 20 rounds in the 10 ring (7" bullseye) using only a sling in the prone position when firing my M1917 (Pattern 14 in .30-06) or my 1903A3 Springfield.  I even manage to keep most shots in the 10 ring with my M1898 Krag at the same distance.

The bore of my No 4 looks good and a lead slug revealed the barrel had a lot of life left in it.

Are my expectations for this rifle just too high??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 11:48am
dont forget to post the end results , we do want to see that saved rifle when your done , im glad i never touched it so that the right person puts the finish on it 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 9:30am
I’m in that same boat.  Range is closed for at least the next month, possibly longer.  On the plus side, I’ve now got some time to tinker with the Velo and re-blue the Long Branch Mk 1/2.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2020 at 8:08am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Armorer, will it shoot sub-MOA for 10 rounds consistently?  I can show you lots of tiny three shot clover leaf groups at 100 yards, 1/3 MOA or less, and 5 round groups not much larger.    


Once out of 'lock-down' I'll try and see what I can do.

The rifle can manage much better than I can, so everything needs to come together on the same day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 2:26pm
Since the OP is about throat erosion affecting accuracy, below is an example of the first five shots off the elbows, no support, PH 5c aperture sight.  Rifle is A 69L Long Branch No. 4  Mk 1/3, BSA 5 groove barrel with a very loooooong throat.  174 gr SMK seated to 3.05 cartridge overall length, the bullet is about 1/2 inch off the lands, yet the rifle is still accurate for its intended purpose.  Of course, accuracy is a relative term. 

600 yards, first 5 shots in just over 6 inches (1 MOA).  The next 5 opened up the group to 12 inches (2 MOA), some of that was undoubtably me, a few of the last shots dropped just below the edge of the 10 ring.

The 10 ring on the US NRA Medium Range target is 12 inches (2 MOA).   It’s tough keeping all ten shots in the 10 ring  (Score of 100) with an aperture sight, regardless how accurate the rifle is, even for a NRA High Master shooter (average score of 97/100 or higher on the High Power Service Rifle course). 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:09am
Armorer, will it shoot sub-MOA for 10 rounds consistently?  I can show you lots of tiny three shot clover leaf groups at 100 yards, 1/3 MOA or less, and 5 round groups not much larger.  But getting 10 consecutive shots under 1 MOA is tough to do, barrel vibration will inevitably cause a “flier”.    In shooting many 10 shot groups off the bench with a scope with match ammo thru a Fulton match prepped rifle has lead me to conclude 1 to 1.5 MOA is more typical for 10 shot groups.  And that’s what the Bisley Queens Prize winners have stated in the historical records for the No. 4.  (1.5 MOA was considered to be an exceptionally close grouper).  When the No. 4 was the rifle used in Service Rifle competition, the target bullseye was 2.5 MOA (200, 300 and 600 yd targets) even then, shooting clean scores was not easy.  This was with Mk 7 ammunition produced for the matches.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 9:43am
Bear in mind those are the minimum requirements, not even the average.
Many can & have done much better.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 8:28am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

The No. 4 accuracy standard at time of production is essentially 3 MOA.  That was the minimum standard using Mk 7 ball ammunition.  It’s not too difficult to better this standard with handloads using a match bullet.  Correcting any issues with forend fit/bedding, lightening the trigger, smaller aperture, etc. will get this below 2 MOA.  With a scope and other non-match legal mods, accuracy for 10 shots can approach MOA.  Goosic has gotten 1/2 MOA...




My Savage No4 is sub 1 MoA with 'factory' PPU ammunition and original 'iron sights'
Properly (military) bedded and no 'gimmicks.

Distance 82yards (75 metres) Lying prone, only elbow support, wind 10-12mph right to left, 2 warming rounds at 10 O'clock, then 5 rounds.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 8:15am
The No. 4 accuracy standard at time of production is essentially 3 MOA.  That was the minimum standard using Mk 7 ball ammunition.  It’s not too difficult to better this standard with handloads using a match bullet.  Correcting any issues with forend fit/bedding, lightening the trigger, smaller aperture, etc. will get this below 2 MOA.  With a scope and other non-match legal mods, accuracy for 10 shots can approach MOA.  Goosic has gotten 1/2 MOA...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 7:33am

Lee Enfield 'shoots 1 MoM' (Minute Of Man)


The official acceptable accuracy requirements.


SMLE (No1 Mk3) TESTING

For the SMLE All rifles were tested for accuracy by the Small Arms Inspection Department at 100ft, and 10% were also tested at 600 yds. All rifles were fired from a special mechanical rest, known as an Enfield Rest, and a special Telescope layer was used for laying an aim. The Enfield Rest was designed to simulate the conditions under which a rifle would be held when fired from the shoulder, and was provided with hand wheel adjustments for laying an aim. Trial shots were first fired and, if necessary the foresight was adjusted laterally, or replaced by one of a different height, until the shots on the target were within the required limits. Five rounds were then fired, and four of the five shots had to be contained in a rectangle 1 inch broad by 1½ in high. Rifle which failed this test were rejected. At 600 yds 10 shots were fired, nine of which had to fall within a 2 foot circle.

No 4 RIFLE TESTING

For the No 4 Rifle, the accuracy test was the same at 100ft ten per cent of all rifles were then fired at 200 yds when six of seven shots had to fall in a rectangle 6in x 6in , the point of mean impact having to be within 3 inches of the point of aim in any direction. Ten per cent of rifles fired at 200 yds were again fired at 600 yds when 6 out of seven shots had to be in a rectangle 18 inches x 18 inches the permissible deviation of point of mean impact being 9 inches up or down, or left or right. Two per cent of rifles were fired from the shoulder, ten rounds being fed into the magazine by charger and fired rapid to test “feeding up” and ejection. After these tests the barrel was inspected to ensure that there was no expansion in the bore or chamber and that it shaded correctly from end to end. (Was not bent)

No 5 TESTING

The firing test to which the No 5 rifle was subjected was the same as that for the No 4 at 100ft. It was not tested at 200 yds but 10 per cent were tested at 600 yards when the acceptance was ten out of ten shots contained in a rectangle 36 inches x 36 inches. Two per cent of the No 5 rifles were also submitted to the same functioning test as the No4 rifle.



Throughout World War 2 much of the accuracy testing was done by women shooters who quickly became proficient at the job. To speed up the procedure, the telescope layer was dispensed with, and aim was taken in the normal way through the back sight. The .1 inch aperture in the back sight was too large for easily laying a correct aim at 100ft, and a small spring steel adaptor was used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2020 at 3:50pm
For a battle rifle, and thats what it is, the No. 4 is above average in accuracy.  With careful assembly, proper forend bedding, a good barrel, reloads with a quality match bullet, the rifle will hold close to MOA For 10 shot groups.  The shooter will open this group up, how much depends on many factors.  Gossic has beaten this standard with his skill at building rifles and shooting ability, but we should not expect to meet this standard with a “as issued” rifle.  

2 to 4 MOA can be expected of a good condition rifle when fired in the prone position with the issue aperture sights.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2020 at 2:03pm
Your comment, "Marksmanship Matches"  should start a whole "nuther" thread. Alot of Bisely matches were and still won with the venerable Lee Enfield rifle. The civilian marksmanship program, CMP has an as issued service rifle competition and the Lee Enfield plays a prominent role in that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2020 at 1:56pm
Goosics above advise was instumental in me just enjoying shooting these rifles and realizing that any grouping I can cover with the palm of my hand is a good day at the range. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2020 at 1:29pm
I had stated in another post that if you are hitting a target at a distance of 100 yards,be it standing,prone, or sitting at a bench,and can cover those shots with just the palm of your hand, that the rifle is doing exactly as it should.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2020 at 1:26pm
britrifles has alot of wisdom on bedding techniques to achieve better accuracy from the No4 and would no doubt assist you should you need it.
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