Fake or Real?? |
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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They seem consistent, although your de-hooked is a little less pronounced, but you can see the tapers. The apprentice armourer de-hooking mine must have been a little heavy handed on the grinder!
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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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Great photos, thanks for posting.
It'll certainly help us all when looking at bayonets.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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good photos always help in giving accurate and reasonable responses to questions asked here
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MARTINRF
Newbie Joined: January 31 2022 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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...here is my example - among the last of the hooked-quillion examples...made at SAF Lithgow, they started production in 1913 with about 1k rifles/bayonets in that year, about 10k in 1914 and about 15k in 1915...as the hook to the quillion ceased being applied sometime between August/October of that year, there were only somewhere between 11k and 20k bayonets with the hook ever made at Lithgow...the blade on my example has a bright finish all the way from the quillion to the (very) sharp point...does anybody know if there was a variation in the amount of blueing applied to the bayonet blades...(8{
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smerdon42
Senior Member Joined: February 20 2018 Location: Natick MA Status: Offline Points: 455 |
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If I could find a 1913 for my 1913 rifle at a reasonable price it would complet my 1913-1918 collection of Lithgows
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Sarge
Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495 |
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AussieShooter. You pose a couple of concerns about your Lithgow '07', which... are quite simple to explain.
Firstly... The absence of the 'Hooked' Quillon. In GB, production of the curved quillion ended in November of 1913, with the War department.... through the official 'List Of Changes'.... announcing the end of production, and the removal of the curved quillon from all future production. The curved quillon was also to be removed, as and when a bayonet were to be presented for either repair or inspection. History has shown that quite a substantial amount of curved quillon '07's' ( for one reason or another ) have survived in their original form. Australia was slightly behind in curved quillon '07' matters, including stopping production, and the removal. So, what you have is a perfectly authentic Lithgow 'Quillon' removed example. Secondly...The scabbard. With the '07' bayonet, there are three frog studs which will be encountered : 1) The original 'Tear Drop'; 2) The 'Roundal'... announced to replace the 'Tear Drop' in mid 1916; 3) the Australian 'Roundal', which is noticeably smaller than it's British counterpart. It's quite feasible that the original scabbard to your '07' was replaced due to it being unserviceable for a number of reasons. Also, stampings military area's differ between WW1 and WW2. So, each difference you have, is one instance in the bayonets lifeline. To add to that, when a bayonet is submitted for inspection / repair / modification.... the bayonet and scabbard are inspected separately. So, it's quite logical to assume the two may never be together again.... although there are cases of staying as one unit.
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This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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Sarge
Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495 |
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he!!o everyone. Nice to be back after such a long absence.
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This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Hi @Sarge great to have you back. I appreciate the explanation and am pleased it is an interesting example. There is a story to it!
@martinrf I love the photos of Lithgow Hookie. That is nice to have in your collection. Congratulations! We are all a little jealous 😀
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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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Good to see you back here Sarge.
Glad you are still with us!
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Sarge
Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495 |
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Thanks 'Zed' 'AussieShooter'.
If I can work out how to post pics on here again, I'll share my '07' Vickers collection----> '9' examples to-date. |
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This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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well that answers one of my questions - lithgow was still producing hookies in 1915
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smerdon42
Senior Member Joined: February 20 2018 Location: Natick MA Status: Offline Points: 455 |
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Lithgow also still produce rifles with volley sights until 1916/17,deleting the volley sight but leaving the mag cutoff in play then in 1918 no mag cutoff and then back in 1940 a mag cut off back .i still need a 1913 lithgowhooky any one got one for sale lol
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MARTINRF
Newbie Joined: January 31 2022 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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...the bayonet combination came out of a WW1 British collector friend living up in Bradford, West Yorkshire, after working on him for something over 28 years to release all of his AIF items to me so the deal, a few years ago, had a very long gestation period, indeed...all of the items came to him from various fairs in the Leeds area so I assume this item saw service either in France/Belgium - or even the Dardenelles - but of course I cannot be 100% certain of that...all I know is that very few dealers/collectors, if any, over here get AIF items sent over from Australia - the AIF bits that I come by all seem to originate from sources the UK...(8{ |
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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That hookie looks in fantastic condition. What is the wooden item strapped to the scabbard? I haven't seen this before. Congratulations on your collection - I look forward to seeing some more of it over time.
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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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mine is a 1910 mole ,
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Marco1010
Senior Member Joined: February 04 2020 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 400 |
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The wooden handle attached to the bayonet has the official nomenclature of "Implement, Entrenching, Patt. '37, Helve Mk I". Originally these were issued pre-WW1 through WW1 for the Pattern 1908 pattern sirhind tool. However, in 1923 these were discontinued.
In 1939, the British decided on the need for an entrenching tool again and the square blade, Linneman style spade was adopted. After a couple of years, the British decided that there was a problem with their "new" style entrenching tools. In 1941, the spade model was discontinued and the British reintroduced the old, Pattern 1908 Entrenching Tool, but gave it a new nomenclature, the "Implement, Entrenching, Patt. '37". It was called the Pattern 1937, but was actually adopted in 1941. The first of these were issued with a plain style handle, just like the original Pattern 1908 tools. These early wood handles were called the "Helve, Mk I". Not often found complete for some reason, but a cool item. |
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