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On bore/groove cleaning

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raubvogel View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 11 2012 at 12:53am
I am feeling a bit frustrated cleaning the bore of my Enfield. I soak it with Hopps's 9 and then run the brush down the barrel and then clean it again with #9, but even though most of the barrel looks really nice it looks like something -- rust? brass? Aliens? -- is stuck in the grooves. And no matter how much I rub the brass brush I cannot get it.

I am using brass for .30 caliber. But I then also try .308 one and besides it is harder to push I do not get those bloody deposits out. What else can I try?

On a related note (barrel and 303), I recently got me a Martini Metford carbine. I was cleaning its barrel and noticed the patch came out with some green deposits. What would that be?
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Smokey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 1:21am
Green color/deposits on a patch are from copper alloy metal fouling in the barrel. Depending on much is in there, Hoppe's #9 will get slight amounts. Sweets 7.62 will get much heavier buildups. It also got out the nickel fouling I had in a well-used No4 Mk2 over a week's time. You might have some corrosion/pitting in the grooves. Light surface pitting normally does not affect accuracy much, particularly in the grooves. Keep shooting and cleaning it and see if it gets better over time.
I normally don't do a lot of scrubbing with a brush any more. I coat the bore with Hoppes, let it sit about 20 minutes or so, then swab it dry and oil it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 1:02pm
What about using automotive brake cleaner for a really dirty and/or metal fouled barrel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 3:37pm
Brake cleaner won't shift it. Try boiling soapy water let the barrel get good and hot then use sweets let that stand for a while and scrub the barrel with a phosphor bronze brush. It'll take time and a lot of cleaning to get all the fouling out but once you've got it clean normal cleaning after use will keep it clean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2012 at 9:45pm
I use boiling hot soapy water down the spout of my rifled Enfield musket.It actually works well!The water/soap mixture escapes through the nipple port.I use a 12ga brass brush as well.Once things begin to loosen I use a bladed scraper on inside of breechplug-then back to water/soap & brass brush.Once fully drained &dry, I go to swabs with Hoppes..& finally to DEEP LUBE or BREAK FREE for barrel coating.Put the tampion in(after a good cleaning of it) & back on the wall til I make more Minnie balls
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Smokey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2012 at 5:57am
Boiling water is the stuff to use after corrisive ammo too. Dry it and oil it after.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blanc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2012 at 7:01am
What about good old Youngs 303?  I recently found an old tin priced at 99 pence, and used it on my 7.62 Enfield barrel, and it came up a treat.  I normally use Hoppes and finish up with Brunox but couldn't get similar to what you have out of the barrel.
 
Youngs on the back of the tin suggest 1 - 3 of water to make up what they call aquaoil.
I deal in lead friend
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 1:35am
The catalogs of the period advertised various mildly abrasive cleaning pastes, similar to JB bore paste. Besides JB paste there are several newer polishing pastes that have a strong following among long range target shooters.
 
I've used JB paste in the past with good results. Don't over do it though, since the steel of the Enfield barrels is not so wear resistent as the steel of modern rifle barrels, and the heat of Cordite can cause changes in the bore surface which leaves the surface covered in microscopic checking fractures that can result in the bore surface flaking away.
This "alligator checking" also makes the bore surface hold onto hard baked carbon and jacket metal deposits making these very difficult to remove.
 
The old manuals say that one should not attempt to achieve a bright shiny bore. So long as patches come out reasonably clear the appearance of the bore is secondary.
The same is advised for the later hammerforged bores. These will always have a dusty look no matter how clean to get them.
Some modern day barrel makers have even taken to producing a textured bore surface to reduce friction and discourage metal fouling, on the same principle as the "seasoned" bore of Black Powder era target rifles.
Sometimes a bright polished bore is not the best thing to have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 5:55am
You might try leaving the hoppes #9 in overnight with the rifle stored muzzle down. Hoppes is not a high speed aggressive cleaner & time works wonders without all the drama & trauma of scrubbing to death.
Just wet the bore with soaked patches, let sit & them remove crud the next day with a few wet & dry patches inter spaced.

Note this is with #9, not the other more aggressive cleaners.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 10:39am
i have found in the case of dificult situations like this , it has worked to shoot clean , shoot clean , etc , but i wasnt looking for perfection only improovement
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 11:46am
I have in the past plugged the chamber and filled the bore with very strong solvents, Sweets 7.62 and a copper solvent (Outers I think it was, don't remember the brand).
The chamber plug was made by using a .45 ACP cartridge case with sharpened case mouth like a cookie cutter to cut plugs from a large rubber eraser.
When filling the bore to let solvents work overnight one should stretch a length of rubber tubing over the muzzle so theres no tideline where the bore surface is exposed to both air and solvent fumes, otherwise the surface can become etched in a ring.
When filling the bore only 1/3 to 1/2 its length I placed a steel cleaning rod with patch in the bore down to the chamber, then filled around it.
I've used dacron hair pad patches in the loop, and sometimes wrapped these with 0000 steel wool. One shouldn't scrubb a bore with steel wool, that goes without saying, but 0000 steel wool is not hard enough to cut bore steel, its often recommended for removing lead deposits.
The steel wool won't do much against jacket metal fouling either, not by itself that is.
 
What I'd do was to draw the patch up the bore slowly then push back down the bore even more carefully. Repeating every hour or so to be sure the bore never got dry.
The steel wool will cut away metal fouling softened by the solvent, exposing more of the fouling to the solvent with each stroke.
This also kept the bore wet with solvent so no tide line could form.
Bronze wool is often recommended for polishing away metal fouling, but would be eaten up by strong solvents even more quickly than the fouling.
 
After this sort of intensive cleaning, the expended solvent pours out looking as black and thick as burnt crankcase oil.
 
As A square 10 suggests the best method is to fire a few rounds then clean throughly, then fire a few more rounds and clean.
The reason so many of these bores are so deeply coated with fouling is that troops in the field seldom had an opportunity to clean the bore throughly. Just pouring water through the bore and dragging a pull through up the bore staved off rust from corrosive primers, but did nothing to remove metal fouling and hard baked carbon fouling.
After each world war the military establishments had serious manpower shortages and millions of rifles that had to be dealt with before being placed in storage.
 
Many the SMLE straight from the importer that I've cleaned up and found the barrels to be choked with fouling under the cosomline. Even the extra deep Enfield grooves were packed with fouling even with the lands.
You could wear out a hundred brushes and barely touch that sort of age cured hard fouling.
 
I've considered building one of the electrode type cleaning outfits, these work like electroplating in reverse, the non ferrous metal fouling being drawn away from the bore to plate the electrode rod placed in the bore. This breaks up carbon deposits as well.
 
Very often a heavily fouled bore will look pitted, but after through cleaning it turns out that what looked like pits was actually voids in a thick layer of metal fouling. Carbon particles embedded in the metal fouling having been dissolved by solvents during previous attemps at cleaning.
 
I'm pleased to say that at this point in time I have managed to get the bores of all my firearms as clean as a whistle, without causing any damage to the bores.
 
For regular cleaning I now use balistol. Balistol is as non toxic as a bore cleaner solvent can get. Its even recommended for cleaning restaurant met cutting machinery, and cleaning and disinfecting wounds and sores on horses and dogs.
This solvent is also good for protecting the bore, and while no oxygen can get past a film of balistol to promote rust the solvent remains active so long as its in the bore. It continues to dissolve stubborn deposits while acting as a preservative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 1:27pm
I would like to know more about the reverse electroplating process! Sounds like quite the solution to a common problem with ex-military used barrels. Thank you for all the learned experience you are sharing with us, there is so much to learn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 4:40pm
"Very often a heavily fouled bore will look pitted, but after through cleaning it turns out that what looked like pits was actually voids in a thick layer of metal fouling."
 
That's what happened with my No.4 Mk.2. I thought I had a pitted bore, but after cleaning out all the "stuff" the bore looks almost new. The rifle is a tackdriver now as well. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 9:49pm
"I would like to know more about the reverse electroplating process!"
Basically you have a small diameter rod (usually stainless) that passes through the center of the bore from end to end without actually touching anywhere. Then you fill the bore with an electrolyte solution tailored to remove copper or lead. Once this is done you run a low power DC current through the rod & the opposite pole to the bore itself.
The current passing through the electrolyte pulls the selected metal off the bore & deposits it on the rod.

Outers makes a commercial system, but you can make your own using old DC adapters as well. Plans & instructions are on the net. I'll see if I can find them & post a link.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White Rhino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2012 at 10:44pm
Yes , post a link to that !!  I may try that ! 
I had looked into a system some time ago but it was pricey and I lost the Web Address to it !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2012 at 5:41am
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Copper


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