WWII Aircraft Facts |
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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I lived in Berlin for four years and say the Wall everyday.
I wish I was there to see it come down but I had left nine years before it fell. Hoadie, there was a IRISH Brigade one each side. |
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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I KNOW there was Irish on both sides...but if you hadda bin on the RIGHT side, ya would call it SHARPSBURG!!
Heathen! Hoadie |
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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Hoadie,
As my Family is from western Maryland I do know the history of the bloodiest days. |
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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SEE!? SEE!? Maryland...that automatically puts you on the wrong side! What a shame..Maryland COULD'VE SHOULD'VE (& almost did) join the south..but alas..twas not to be. You said you were at SHARPSBURG for 125th..what 'bout 1st & 2nd Manassass? Did you do G'Burg or Pittsburg Landing? If I recall correctly-SHARPSBURG & APPOMATOX were the only 2 I missed.(Couldn't make it to Sharpsburg,& refused to surrender @ APPO...but I did SAYLOR'S CREEK.
Hoadie |
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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I do not think so.
There are a few Gray Ghosts in my family. I did not know them to shake their hand but I honor their memory. |
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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LE Owner
Senior Member Joined: December 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1047 |
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Actually the Mustang owed little or nothing to the P-40 design. North American Aircraft co had hired a German immigrant who had worked for Fokker and he influenced the design as his idea of an improved ME fighter. This is one reason some of the early Mustangs were shot down by mistake, they looked too much like the ME-109. The later bubble canopy cured that ID problem. If you check out some older war films the early model Mustangs and A-36 dive bomber version were often painted up to pass for ME-109 fighters on film. There were a few P-40 fighter fitted with Merlin engines, but these were not much improved by the extra horsepower. Curtis aircraft co built a number of improved P-40 protypes but the basic design was simply not well suited to higher horsepower inline engines, the P-40 airframe having been a development of the radial engine P-36 fighter. The P-40 continued to soldier on as a ground attack and close air support fighter.
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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With all due respect, methinks you may be in error.
The British Purchasing Commission was sent to the U.S. with the aim of acquiring American built military aircraft, in 1938. This commission was led by Sir Henry Self.(They were already dealing with North American with the purchase of the AT-6 trainers-Harvards for Canucks). The pres.@ North Am was James H Kindelberger.(They called him "Dutch")He had worked @ Glen Martin & Douglas aircraft before joining N/American.He also tored Germany & Blighty to visit their aircraft factories in the late 30's.When it became apparent the P-40 upgrades werent going to "cut it" Kindelberger & his VP-Atwood approached Sir Henry with a proposal that THEY design a fighter.(They hadn't done that before).Self issued the order w/stipulations:protyotypes to be ready in 120 days,cost not to exceed $50,000.(It was actually designed, built & flown in 117 days!)They started with the ALLISON V-1710.After alot of development glitches, Sir Henry believed the design was sound, & placed an order for 300 NA-73's in Oct 1940. Theres alot more info availble on this in my library-if anyone is interested. Hoadie |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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I'm with Hoadie on this one.
The British wanted a US made firghter, but the only thing even close to the issied spec was the P-40. Unfortunately they were running at 100% capacity already & so North American was approached to make an under licence copy of the P-40 for the RAF. N A suggested instead that they could design & build a better aircraft from scratch. That aircraft was the original P-51. It had a more modern design overall including "laminar flow" wings for les drag & a vastly better designed figelage as well. There was really no commonality between the P-40 & the P-51 except the Allison powerplant & that changed once a Merlin was introduced to the P-51 airframe for its superior high altuitude performace.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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The "laminar flow" wing wasn't intended for the new fighter.In fact, it was a bone of contention..which was ultimatley proved the right thing to do by Mr.Ed Horkey & his team.The initial wind tunnel tests in Calif were not good.Quite a setback.But another test in a bigger tunnel @ univ of Seattle proved the previous test had been misleading.Further design upgrades to reduce drag were then implemented.
The P-40 was kept on in strength with the commonwealth throughout because it was a good ground support aircraft, & fairly tough Hoadie |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Gratuitous P-40, & P-51 pics from the Air & Space museum.
"Lope's Hope" the Curtiss P-40, not the original flown by Donald S. Lopez Sr, the DD of the Smithsonian, but a copy. Capt. Charles F. Blair’s “Excalibur III”, a P-51C modified for long range air racing. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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Very cool photos.
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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paddyofurniture
Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 5255 |
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Has anyone read / owned this book, "National Air and Space Museum"by C.D.B. Bryan.
It is a great book. If you get a chance you will enjoy this book if you like aircraft. The book is 10 inch by 12 inches with a thickness of about 2 inches. I would gladly leaned it out but postage would be a killer. Let me know what you think. Yes Hoadie there are lots of photos. |
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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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LE Owner
Senior Member Joined: December 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1047 |
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Not sure why you think my post is in error. Theres nothing in the P-51 design that harks back to the Curtis P-40. The airframes and wings are entirely different. The P-51 was never an upgraded P-40. Edgar Schmued the North American engineer who designed the P-51 had immigrated to Brazil from Germany in 1925 and to the U S from Brazil in 1931. And he had worked for Fokker in the United States. He and other U S aircraft designers studied the same experimental data compiled by European aircraft engineers and incorporated many of the features of the ME-109 in the new aircraft. While not a copy of the ME by any means the similarity in the airframe design is obvious. They also studied some data on oil coolers and such that came from Curtis' attempts to upgrade the P-40, but those Curtis prototypes were dead ends. The Merlin engined upgrade of the P-40 were used by the U S Airforce and by the British and Free French with some sucess, but the Merlin engine used was an earlier and less efficient version than that later used by the P-51. The early versions of the P-51 and the related A-36 Apache divebomber had used the Allison engine, the upgrade to the Merlin engine was natural under the circumstances and greatly increased performance. PS To be more clear. Its a matter of "design philosophy". The ME-109 was originally designed as a high altitude interceptor. Its low drag wing came at a price, the wing acheived low drag by being far thinner than normal for an aircraft in its class. Because the wing was so thin its spars could not accomodate the landing gear strut attachment points and related machinery. The landing gear had to hinge down from the fueselage with wheels stowed in the wings when folded. While the Laminar flow wing of the P-51 was not as efficient as hoped, it still acheived low drag while allowing the wings to be thick enough for sturdy landing gear attachment points with wing stowage and heavy ordnance and drop tank attachment points, as well as large wing guns of .50 to 20mm caliber. Among the design features of the ME-109 that are found on the P-51 are the trapezoid wing planform with squared tips. This feature was one of several reasons that the Mustang was often mistaken for the ME-109. The later "F" and "G" versions of the ME-109 used a semi-elyptical wing tip, while the Japanese went to a squared wing tip more by guess and by golly when problems with the folding wing tips of Naval Zero fighters suffered damage and they test flew some with the rounded wing tips removed and found this improved speed and dive characteristics with little loss in manueverability.
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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I have three large books on the P-51. Nowhere do I find any mention of Edgar.Schmeud. Where may I find some info on this guy..I don't consider wikipedia to be reliable.
Hoadie |
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LE Owner
Senior Member Joined: December 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1047 |
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Heres a couple of news stories on his death in 1985
An honor guard of six P-51 Mustangs did a flyover, five in the "Missing Man" formation the sixth scattering his ashes at sea. There are memorials in his honor as the designer of the P-51. Not every book gives the complete story. I have a fairly detailed book on all the P ( Pursuit ) series U S Fighters, designed before they switched to the F ( Fighter )designation. Few of the guys who did the actual detailed design work on American aircraft ever got much credit for it. Schmued being a German born immigrant may have led to the company not mentioning his role in designing the P-51/A-36 aircraft. I'm sure the British would not have minded his heritage, but if there had been serious problems with the plane it would have been a PR nightmare. Heres a book you might want to add to your library. PS While the Laminar flow wing of the P-51 was not as efficient as wind tunnel testing indicated, this was mainly due to degradation of the wing surfaces after some use. Wear and tear of painted surfaces could disrupt airflow at high speed, which may be why most latter P-51 fighters flew with bare polished metal instead of painted camo. Later testing against German aircraft wings showed that these also suffered increased drag due to the relatively rough surfaces caused by hurried production. So it appears that the Laminar flow cross section did contribute more to speed and range than later testing had suggested. Wing surface smoothness was very important to high speed aircraft. Some Naval Aviators actually shined up the leading edges of their wings with boot polish and claimed that gave them a 3-5 MPH increase in airspeed. While Wiki is not the gretest source, it does give sources and links that you can use to check out their entries for accuracy.
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303Guy
Senior Member Joined: July 10 2012 Location: Auckland Status: Offline Points: 495 |
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Might I point out that the Messerschmitt was designated Bf 109, having been developed before Willy Messerschmitt acquired the company.
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303Guy
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