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Safety Catches

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5thBatt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 4:41am
I never use the "safety", (only the bolt lock on an empty chamber) due to how the "safety" works in a Lee Enfield, using it can lead to an accidental discharge,   the "safety" dis-engages the cocking piece from the sear & there is a chance (especially if parts are worn) the cocking piece may not re-engage the sear & ride over the top leading to a discharge of the rifle, lift the bolt handle or unload.
the use of the word "safety" or "safe" with a loaded firearm is mis-leading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 4:46am
I hope I didn't start off this particular storm in a teacup, but in case I did let me clarify my post from earlier.
I was suggesting the spring be bent back into shape to see if that cured the problem, then replacing whatever was broken. I was NOT suggesting anyonr bugger-fit the thing back together as a final, or permanent repair.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muffett.2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 7:01am
The 303 needs to be cocked for the safety to engage, it becomes a pointless piece of equipment normally when the action is at rest.
 Even using the half cock function is safer, but becomes a problem for those not aware of it's use, leading to all sorts of damage.
 I prefer the Target Rifle attitude, bolt out when not in use. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 3:16pm
I was hoping you would comment, Sarge.  Not having been in the military in the days of the Lee Enfield, I did not know how the safety was viewed. In the civilian world a gun is kept unloaded and with bolt open but is treated as being loaded.  At the range range one could get banished if found with the bolt closed and the safety engaged.  The Lee Enfield safety is probably the most dangerous of the unmodified safeties.  Modified Mauser safeties to accommodate a scope are the worst and should never be used.  The Lee Enfield safety can be engaged on half cock which locks the bolt.  The problem with the Lee Enfield safety catch is how easily it can get knocked off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 9:23pm
Reading the last few posts you guys have some realy strange safety mechanisms. I just pulled my No4 Mk2 out & verified what I'm posting here.
My safety will engage regardless of wether it is at rest or on full cock. Uncocked it should slightly pull the striker back from the bolt face for safety. In the 1/2 cock position the safety will not engage.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 2:14am
My mistake.  Half cock locks the bolt and the safety won't engage.  The safety does indeed engage at rest (and locks the bolt).

What was the half cock used for?  To me it would be handy for empty chamber carry to prevent the bolt from opening but was it used by the military?  Half cock is a pretty safe way to carry a loaded rifle but the act of getting there is a bit dodgy.  It means closing the bolt on a round with the trigger depressed then pulling the striker back to engage half cock.  Ever fired a Lee Enfield by closing the bolt with the trigger depressed?  I have!  Never do that.  There is enough forward movement of the striker on locking the bolt to fire it.  And that's not speculation.  The striker is pulled back by a cam in the bolt plus the bolt cams back on unlocking.  A lot of travel there.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 4:36am
The "safety" does not engage in the bolt closed uncocked position (the sear is not engaged with the cocking piece) it just rotates in to the half cock notch in the cocking piece,  sure it stops the cocking piece from moving but the main function in applying the "safety" in this position is to engage the bolt lock (which is that small piece of metal that comes out on the left side of the bolt way)
Sure you guys may call it a "safety" (& probably will anyway) but its not. 
This may be nit picking, but lets get it right eh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 6:27am
"The "safety" does not engage in the bolt closed uncocked position"
Sorry, thats innnacurate or your safety is not working correctly!
Take an uncocked rifle & look at the cocking piece as you engage the safety lever. You should see the cocking piece move slightly back from the bolt's rear end. If you do not see the cocking piece move back about 1/8" then your safety is defective as it leaves the firing pin in contact with the primer of a chambered round.
It both locks the bolt to prevent rotation & pulls the striker back into the bolt face. If that isn't a "safety" I don't know what is. Admittedly its a slightly different safety function from what it does on full cock, but it absolutely is a safety.
 
"What was the half cock used for?"
 
The original purpose for the half cock notch was to catch the striker if a cocked rifle were somehow struck on the cocking piece hard enough to shear the primary sear engagment. Like if it were dropped on a hard surface. It caught the striker 1/2 cocked instead of firing an A.D.
 
That's the "official version" what was it really, really used for? To confuse the heck out of sproglets.Wink
 
We had occasion to meet up with a super-soldier wannabee a while back & we were obliged to spend 10 days in the woods with this crazy man. His safety had a loose screw & a bad spring, so it kind of randomly flopped for fire to safe & anywhere in between! When we tried to have him tell us if the rifle was unloaded he didn't knowShocked We removed the magazine (which he didn't realize came out!)Confused & there were 3 rounds in it. We unjammed the "broken" rifle & opened the bolt.
 Oops!
 Recount!
 4 rounds; 3 in the mag & one more "up the spout"Angry
 
We decided he was way, way to dangerous so we (quietly) replaced his 4 live rounds with action proving dummies & fixed his safe. Then we (again quietly) put the rifle on half cock, immobilizing everything!Ouch
 
6 months later there was a thread asking how to "unjam" a Lee-Enfield. Sneaky? Possibly, but we were at least safe in the woods with this twitStar
 
If you mistakenly carry a rifle in 1/2 cock you've (unwisely) disabled the safety function of the notch.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 303Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 3:46pm
Good story.  Pretty scary though.  Lucky there was no accidental discharge!

That 'official' explanation doesn't make sense.  It's the same sear that would get broken in a fall that engages the half-cock.  Not that I can imagine it getting broken by anything!  The half-cock is great for locking the action but be careful if considering half-cock as a safe loaded rifle carry mode. If the rifle has had a bolt change it may be able to fire by pulling on the trigger a little harder.  I won't go into how I know this .... But to my credit, I did test it in a safe direction!  I used to thing one hunted with a loaded gun.  No more.  Bolt open carry so we all know the condition of the gun.  There's no-way a Lee Enfield can be accidentally made unsafe with bolt open carry.  Debris however, can fall into the open action, rendering the gun inoperable.  How do I know that? Mmmm ....  Luckily we never did come across any pigs in the dense bush.  It's empty chamber closed bolt carry now.  The Lee Enfield is such a quiet action to operate anyway.

My problem with the use of the safety is its position - it's just so vulnerable to bumping off.  I can see it having its uses in combat.  Never going to be there with a Lee Enfield myself - or any other weapon (unless mayhem breaks out).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 5thBatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

"The "safety" does not engage in the bolt closed uncocked position"
Sorry, thats innnacurate or your safety is not working correctly!
Take an uncocked rifle & look at the cocking piece as you engage the safety lever. You should see the cocking piece move slightly back from the bolt's rear end. If you do not see the cocking piece move back about 1/8" then your safety is defective as it leaves the firing pin in contact with the primer of a chambered round.
It both locks the bolt to prevent rotation & pulls the striker back into the bolt face. If that isn't a "safety" I don't know what is. Admittedly its a slightly different safety function from what it does on full cock, but it absolutely is a safety.
 
"What was the half cock used for?"
 
The original purpose for the half cock notch was to catch the striker if a cocked rifle were somehow struck on the cocking piece hard enough to shear the primary sear engagment. Like if it were dropped on a hard surface. It caught the striker 1/2 cocked instead of firing an A.D.
 
That's the "official version" what was it really, really used for? To confuse the heck out of sproglets.Wink
 
We had occasion to meet up with a super-soldier wannabee a while back & we were obliged to spend 10 days in the woods with this crazy man. His safety had a loose screw & a bad spring, so it kind of randomly flopped for fire to safe & anywhere in between! When we tried to have him tell us if the rifle was unloaded he didn't knowShocked We removed the magazine (which he didn't realize came out!)Confused & there were 3 rounds in it. We unjammed the "broken" rifle & opened the bolt.
 Oops!
 Recount!
 4 rounds; 3 in the mag & one more "up the spout"Angry
 
We decided he was way, way to dangerous so we (quietly) replaced his 4 live rounds with action proving dummies & fixed his safe. Then we (again quietly) put the rifle on half cock, immobilizing everything!Ouch
 
6 months later there was a thread asking how to "unjam" a Lee-Enfield. Sneaky? Possibly, but we were at least safe in the woods with this twitStar
 
If you mistakenly carry a rifle in 1/2 cock you've (unwisely) disabled the safety function of the notch.
Yep quite right Shamu, the cocking piece does move back about 1/8 on an empty chamber but try that (but please not in your home) with a loaded & un-fired round in the chamber & you get anything from a slight backwards movement to none at all dependent on headspacing and/or rim thickness & how far back the round is pushing back the firing pin, Like i said, this is all nit-picking about what does what & when, & what to call it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 7:00pm
While proper practice, not lowering the firing pin on a loaded chamber, would make the engaging of the safety with pin lowered un necessary for safety, safeties are designed to take into account improper practices as well.
With cocking piece lowered by hand while chamber is loaded the safety being engaged would prevent a blow to the cocking piece from causing a discharge.

There's always someone who wants to carry a extra round by loading the chamber and a full magazine. Probably more commonly done in the early days when the LE and MLM carbine mags held six rounds and rifle mags held eight with no charger loading options.

I have heard an account of an AD caused by a sentry using the half cock noth as a safety due to difficulty in operating the safety lever while wearing thick gloves during stormy weather. Apparently pulling the cocking piece back while wearing wet gloves did not turn out so well either.

The half cock (half bent)notch is to catch the sear to prevent discharge if a worn sear lets the pin drop when the trigger has not been pulled. Half or quarter cock notches do the same for semi auto handguns that might otherwise go off if jostled,double or go full auto due to the jolt of the slide cycling.

Regulations for Musketry discourage use of the half cock as a safety when the rifle does not have a safety lever, as some of the early rifles did not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2013 at 9:19pm
& theres the difference I think. In combat is not at the range so its a case of correct horses for courses.
 
Incidentally I do not advocate loaded chamber, bolt down safety on carry, nor do I trust any mechanical device 100%. The best safety is the one between your ears.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LE Owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2013 at 2:37pm
A safety device comes in mighty handy if changing position or advancing during a battle. The French deleted manual safeties from their military rifles intending to use the bolt closed but bolt handle up to prevent ADs when moving about, but the LE action is a bit too slick when moving through brush for this to work that well, since the cock on closing action would only be half closed exposing the action to debris and it being too easy for the unlocked bolt to be flung fully open by contact with anything.
When faced with an unforeseen obstacle its far easier to put the safety on when crossing a stream or ditch than to empty the chamber and risk dirt and mud getting into the works of an opened action when crawling up the opposite bank. Far easier and quieter to flick that safety off if suddenly confronted by an enemy than to quickly chamber a round.

Check out WW1 photos of troops covered with mud from boot heel to crown after a battle and ask yourself if moving about with bolt retracted would have been a wise idea. They were lucky if they could avoid getting mud in their eyes, much less in any equipment, even the muzzles were often protected by quick release or shoot through covers.
The canvas action cover would prevent quick cycling of the action, and the reciprocating action cover of the MLM and LE would be useless if the action were left half open.
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