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Churchill arms no.4 mk.1

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teleposer View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 07 2015 at 9:32pm
Hi, I am really glad I found this forum, it seems like a great place for information.

I recently acquired a no.4 mk.1 which appears to have been sporterized by churchill arms. The stock is in rough shape (pitted, scuffed). But the barrel is beautiful though and it shoots great. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about these sporters? I have always had a soft spot for the .303 as a fine piece of military and hunting history and being Canadian, it holds a certain piece of historical weight here as well.

Thanks,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2015 at 10:48pm
http://www.ejchurchill.com/guns/rifles/

 There's a link to Churchill Gunsmiths, They make bespoke rifles and shotguns for the rich and famous. Starting price for a hand made rifle in any calibre is £15000 based on a Mauser action. During WW2 most gunmakers went over to production and assembly of enfields for the war effort, post WW2 a lot of rifles were converted by top class gunmakers into sporting rifles, The likes of Purdy, Holland and Holland and Churchill are the top 3 gunmakers in the UK. I would get the rifle valued by an auction house specializing in firearms and if it's genuine insure it for the full value.
Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 4:56am
Post pics of the rifle when you get a chance. This is a great site!

Brad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 7:19am
Welcome to the site from a fellow BC'er!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teleposer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 7:28am
From what I have seen, it has been a great site. Good to see another BC'er on here as well. Will try to get some pics up soon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 9:43am
The fact that the wood is rough is no big deal, however who fixes that wood is. If the gun was sent back to Churchill it would be refurbished by them to the same standard as original. This is common place "maintenance" provided by all the top English Gunmakers and has no negative effect on the value,,, Unless it isn't done. In fact it is expected that you return your guns to them periodically so they can maintain them to the level that they were originally. 
 
They probably have records of that particular gun and who bought it originally and it would be a good idea to get them to give you as much information as possible as it would increase the value of the gun. IE:  Provenance
 
That 15,000LB number Tony stated above is the starting price for a Bolt Action rifle.  Options add up quickly and don't expect to see the new gun for at least a couple of years after you order it.  These things take time to do right.
 
 
We definitely need detailed pictures as they will be educational for all of us who enjoy the British Sporting Rifle.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 10:14am
A lot of the #4 rifles were sent to the bespoke gunmakers to have the scope mounts fitted and the rifles tested before issue to the snipers. Some of the young lads who worked in the workshops during that era are still part time employees training the up and coming staff. Unfortunately I can't afford to even think of buying a gun off them mores the pity. Email the serial number to them as Randy says and try to track down its history, include a picture of the rifle and get a quote for refurbishing the woodword, it may be expensive but if the rifle is a genuine Churchill it could be worth a small fortune.
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Here are some pictures of the rifle. Have contacted churchill gunmakers and I am hopeful I will hear back from them. Also all serial numbers match on her. So at least I have that going for me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2015 at 1:07pm
That wood looks just fine to me!
It might well have contracted the scuffs & so on as part of some grand safari or something.

British bespoke gunsmiths are very different from the American ones, its hard to understand the actual relationship unless you've experienced it. Not that I have, or can afford such fine rifles, but I was lucky enough to have lived within walking distance of the original Gibbs gun-shop in Bristol. It was amazingly traditional the staff all wore the yellow & black striped "bumblebee" vests while serving. I have no idea which exclusive customers I may have met there being only a nipper, but even just buying a box of Eley Tennex I was treated like a regular customer by staff & clients alike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 11:31am
Is it based on a No4Mk1 or a No4Mk2?
Only the screw next to the wrist appears to be like the Mk2 or Mk1/2 with the trigger hung from the receiver.
Nice looking sporter!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W.R.Buchanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 11:43am
Where exactly does this gun say "Churchill" on it?
 
This gun looks like something on par with a Parker Hale "Supreme" Sporter.
 
 
After the war Churchill made inexpensive guns from surplus military rifles just like P&H and Gibbs and others. In keeping with the PH Supremes, the barrels were cut to 22", a Ramp Front Sight added, and new wood.
 
Pretty sure this is one of those. It is not a custom gun, but more of a "nice common mans gun," and there is nothing wrong with that.  Simply refinishing the wood could make it look real nice and it could be a good shooter that would serve you well.
 
A custom made gun would never have a Military Ladder Rear sight on it and it would not have had a Monte Carlo Cheek Piece without a scope mounted.
 
The guns we were talking about when the name Churchill came up were more on the order of this.
 
or these
 
Or this,
 
 
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evanguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 12:17pm
I thouht that screemed parker hale when i seen it. either way a real nice gun. i have a PH custom no1mk3 i love PH guns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teleposer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 12:38pm
Hi. It is stamped no 4 mk 1 on the receiver. Also the Churchill came from the stamp that says "Churchill arms England" ( or something to that effect), which is on the top of the barrel where it meets the reciever. It also says the same on the butt pad. Will take pics when I get home from work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teleposer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 5:30pm
I never really assumed I had a 15,000 pound (although that would be nice) churchill on my hand, I was just hoping for some info on it. But, as promised here are some pictures. The top of the barrel actually says "Churchill arms 7 Bury Street London SW England". I can't find anything on another company called "Churchill" in England, but its possible. These are all the marks really on it. There are a few "broad arrows" or "crows feet" as I have heard them called on her as well.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2015 at 10:49pm
Churchill should have records, as I said before note the serial number email it to Churchills and lets see what they can come up with. Send some pictures with the serial number and ask them to give you a valuation, it may not be worth a lot but it's a rare rifle and certainly worth more than a Parker hale to a collector.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2015 at 6:11am
A little more interesting tidbit, that rifle was built up from a Savage No 4 Mk 1*. It is a nice looking sporter and I hope you can get some info from Churchill on it.
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