My 1909 No 1*** {PICTURES REVISED] |
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MarkG
Senior Member Joined: November 30 2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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As far as I can see, that's only a Z, though, not a ZF? Wouldn't that just be part of the serial number?
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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Geeze Sham: I don't think he'll like that news.
(Tough being the bearer of bad news, aint it?) |
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Loose wimmen tightened here
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MarkG
Senior Member Joined: November 30 2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I found a picture of another BSA No1 online, and it has an 'M' in that spot as part of its serial number:
I also looked at a picture I have of mine on my phone, and mine has a 'Z' there, too. So either they're both defective or BSA were just using 'Z' prefixes at the time. And mine was passed as good to shoot by the local gunsmith. I couldn't find a picture of a ZF on the receiver, only the buttstock.
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Whitjr
Senior Member Joined: September 09 2018 Location: Piedmont, NC Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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I do know these rifles put a deer on the ground just file!
To the “Z” commentary above.... The gun has been inspected by a gunsmith, owned by a gunsmith, fired at a rifle range by the owning gunsmith.... deer have been taken with this rifle by the previous ower who was a gunsmith... I find some solace in the old USAF saying: if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck. I have looked and do not see a”ZF” or the other variations of “Z” mentioned... there are no stampings on the stock at all... so will trust and agree with you MarkG, on the prefixes used at the time. How would one know what prefixes were used, and when? |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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OK that's just the serial number prefix. (breathes sigh of relief) I thought you were referring to a separate Z!
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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MarkG
Senior Member Joined: November 30 2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I've seen people refer to books which list which prefix(es) was/were used by different manufacturers at different times, but I haven't found a list online. I did find another Z-prefix BSA from 1917, when mine was made.
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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It started out just as a letter to give more digits to a rotation. started with: 1000 went up to 9999 then added an "A" A 1000 up to A 9999 then B B1000 to B9999 & so on through Z 9999. Then a second letter so AA 1000 to AA9999 & then incremented the second letter AB 1000 through AB 9999 up to ZZ ZZ9999 was the last of the sequence & they simply started over. Eventually the first numeric digit was the factory identifier so it became XX 1### for one ROF XX 2### for another XX 3### for a third & so on. Finally they went to more complex separate codes like "M47c", but it was all very interleaved & slapdash. Some factories were using the first digit, some the ROF code & some something else. "The Lee Enfield No 4 Rifle Mk 1 was produced by a variety of different
manufacturers in England. These included ROF Fazakerley, BSA, and ROF
Maltby. Wartime guns all had letter prefixes, but each maker had a
different number after the prefix to differentiate manufacturers. Maltby
guns had a “1” after the letter prefix, Fazakerley guns had a “2”, and
BSA generally a “3”. Some BSA guns lacked an alphabetic prefix, and
other BSA guns had dual letter prefixes that did not start with a “3”. I cant find a list either, sorry.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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Whitjr: I knew a gunsmith that was given a double barrel 4 gauge shotgun by another gunsmith who vehemently informed the latter to never shoot the shotgun because it was determined to be very unsafe to fire. The first gunsmith took the shotgun totally apart,inspected every nuance of the shotgun and deemed it safe to shoot. The shotgun was made in 1877 and the barrels were Damascus steel and were almost paper thin. He then called the second gunsmith and told him the shotgun was perfectly safe to shoot. The second told the first about the barrels and that it was unsafe. The first replied,(ah bull$&!t!!!) Took the shotgun to the range the very next day and had the barrels split down the middle like piece of wood splintering. One of the side hammers came off striking gunsmith in the left eye and penetrating into the cranium. He died. If someone on this forum has information about or regarding a possible defective Enfield rifle,take it with a grain of salt and check and recheck the situation out to positively confirm the issue pointed out,it could save your life. The gunsmith was a very good friend of the other gunsmith who was my second cousin.
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Whitjr
Senior Member Joined: September 09 2018 Location: Piedmont, NC Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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Goosic- A sobering story. I'll take it to heart. I'm retired from 35 years as a clinical Respiratory Therapist [hospital-based] and I have a strong sense of the fragility of life. Shamu- thank you for the "Clearing in hot" on the Z Serial Number prefix... [another USAF term, I'm full of them as was born and raised inside the fortress's of USAF bases.]. Do you guys think the rear sights are original to the gun? Any idea as to the value of the weapon? Thanks again for all the responses!
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hoadie
Moderator Group Joined: March 16 2006 Location: Niagara/Canada Status: Offline Points: 9003 |
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IIRC, NO damascus barrels should be used in conjunction with modern powders.
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Loose wimmen tightened here
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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yes , the Z is the serial number prefix the ER is the refurb renumber , that is typical of these I*** rifles [both CR & ER observed ]
good news is rear sight is the correct watkins speed for this rifle , i cannot tell if it was re-calibrated , that involved cutting down the ramps on the base but it was subtle enough to not necessarily be noticeable in a photo , bad news is although the bolt looks like its correct , albeit mismatch , it is missing the charger bridge half , findable but can be difficult , the bayonet boss is a later mkIII but fine with that stock , appears to be missing its cutoff , |
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Whitjr
Senior Member Joined: September 09 2018 Location: Piedmont, NC Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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A Square- the bolt is stamped “3607.” This is also on the receiver, above what is another number “9263” with dashes in between the numbers. This number “9263” is also on the barrel where it mates to the receiver. Wonder why there are two numbers there?
Would this still constitute a mismatched bolt number? When I compare the photo you provided of the bayonet boss to the ‘09, it is hard for me to discern a difference. There are some minute red colors on the sight blade in the photo ... is that what you are referring to as the cutoff? The charger bridge half that is missing... would this interfere with chambering a round, and discharging said round? Or upon extraction of same? Thank you. |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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the ER 3607 number was the new serial number applied when these went through a refurb for irish service , not a bad thing , it just now has two serial numbers with bits matched as originAL AND AT REFURB ,
here is the mkI bayonet boss - and here is the mk III bayonet boss - |
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Whitjr
Senior Member Joined: September 09 2018 Location: Piedmont, NC Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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I see that the “ears” on the No 1 seem to be straighter and perhaps longer. Thanks for taking the time to send the pics.
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Online Points: 5586 |
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This looks like an interesting rifle. I see what looks like and "Ishey" screw through the fore end. Also the original "Z" serial number on the receiver appears to be struck out and replaced by "ER" number; that also appears on the bolt. It could have had replacement wood fitted that came from an Ishapore rifle of course. The fit of the fore end at the wrist seems a bit unfinished and square. The inletting for rear volley sight is missing. It should fold forwards I believe. Barrel appears to date from 05/1911. Nose cap number is different to both receiver number's.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Whitjr
Senior Member Joined: September 09 2018 Location: Piedmont, NC Status: Offline Points: 426 |
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Thanks, Zed
Would the Ishey screw be the one thru the barrel band? This band is not hinged, as i would have expected.
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