Bent case??? |
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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Posted: February 20 2019 at 6:57pm |
I took the No4Mk1* Long Branch faux Envoy with the repurposed F52 barrel to the range today. It performed wonderfully. The .22 conversion part was really fun to play with. Here's the conundrum. I fired exactly 25 reloaded .303 rounds through it. There were no click,,,bangs,no misfires,nothing to indicate a problem. I visually checked the barrel grooves and lands and chamber before I installed it on the receiver. Clocked the barrel correctly and headspace is set correctly. Bolt will not close on the no-go gauge with a #1 bolt head. The case rim sits flush against the back of the barrel accordingly. I just grabbed all the brass to resize and deprime. They are all bent. The last 1/4" of case has a definitive inward lip and then its shiny down to the rim. All 25 cases have flattened primers. The powder used for these were IMR 4064, 40.0 grains. The primers are regular WLR primers. The 174 grain BTHP bullets were seated to normal depths. No stuck cases,no resistance on the bolt during extraction. Nothing abnormal during firing. Look at the two photos and help me identify my issue. The primer pocket has not been enlarged from the flattened primer,so far. I've only resized and deprimed two.cases so far. Do not want to go any further until this issue is resolved.
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britrifles
Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Offline Points: 6539 |
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Can you measure the diameter of the unfired and fired cases at the location above and below the line where the chamber is making contact with the case. It sure looks like in the photo that the diameter of the fired case is larger above the contact line than it is below the line. Might be an illusion, is that correct? If so, might be an enlarged chamber but the case web is stiff enough not to swell radially outwards.
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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Just above the rim the unfired and fired case both measure 0.447. The fired case above the line is 0.454. A .007 increase in case diameter from unfired to fired. There was no residual oils in the chamber,there were no overcharged cases. The bullets were seated to normal seating depth. The cases are noticeably bent and all the primers are flattened. I'm rechecking the chamber now looking for and deformity.
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Scarily enough this can be normal for the .303! Are the cases the same brand & headstamp? Are they full length or neck only resized? Run a bent paperclip up & down inside the cases see if it "catches" at the point where the change is. I've seen some brass do this with "normal" loads. Sometimes its also eccentric as well as blown out. Its a brass, or resizing problem usually. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Offline Points: 6539 |
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Shamu, the top photo looks to me to be typical case head separations from thinning of the web; although it looks a bit higher up on the case that what I've seen (maybe different case construction, I'm only using military cases in my .303).
I've never seen a case swell up that much such that it is larger in diameter at the location of a pending separation than it is just above the rim. I don't think I've seen any external sign of deformation either; just a faint white line where the brass is become elongated and about to crack. Gossic, I assume if this is the first time you have fired this rifle you had F/L sized the cases? Certainly, the case body will expand, but this really looks like an odd shape; I've never seen this before. Does the chamber look good visually, no uneven ridges at the location your getting this deformation in the case? Maybe make a chamber cast. |
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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All brand new Hornady cases. First fired yesterday. Went to full length resize and the case would not go into the die until I turned the case enough for it to halfass center itself.
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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Yup, believe it or not, that is normal.It is a classic condition due to the generous battle rifle proportioned chamber on the Lee Enfield, even with head space clearance set tight.
All looks good. The brass did what it was supposed to do, expand and make a gas tight seal against the chamber walls. Where this is a problem, is only with reloading When chambered, the cartridge is laying on the bottom of the chamber and gets spiked and held in that position by the striker at the moment of firing. When fired, the case expands to meet the chamber walls, however, the base it is not aligned concentric to the bore axis and hence the expansion more to one side and the cocked base. The base actually stays square and flat on the bolt face, it is the case that moves off to the side. Not a design fault because the brass was meant to be a one shot deal and then discarded. Using the rubber O-ring technique will help your problem and extend the life of your brass for reloading. A small O-ring or pony tail rubber band slipped temporarily over the base will position and hold the base of the cartridge centred and concentric with the bore for fire forming. Then segregate and reload those cases for just that rifle. You probably would be finding the sweet spot for your reloads and loading ammo for that individual rifle anyway, right? I am guessing that your full length resizing die is made to SAAMI specs?
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MarkG
Senior Member Joined: November 30 2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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When I fired Remington .303 rounds, the cases came out looking like bananas with a hairline crack on the bent side. PPUs through the same rifle look more like yours here, though not as extreme.
So wacky chambers seem common in these rifles. I know they were made extra-large to cope with the kind of contamination you'd see in war. One of the complaints about the .303 Ross was that it had a tight chamber and could be hard to cycle in the trenches of WWI.
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britrifles
Senior Member Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Offline Points: 6539 |
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Wow, I've been fortunate, I've never seen this kind of issue before in any of the .303's that my Dad had in his collection. A fired case from my No. 4 goes into a F/L die nice and slick, barely touches the case body for at least 1/2 inch above the head, and the case head remain square to the body after firing.
That case coming out of Goosic's rifle is really is bent. I've seen a few of my .30-06 cases extracted from my M1 rifle with the case head no longer square with the case body, but nothing this bad. You can see it when you roll a fired case on the table, the head wobbles. So, now I know the real reason for the "O-ring". Are those Hornady cases smaller in diameter in the body above the rim than military cases? I'll have to go measure some of my DI and DAC brass. I do know that a service cartridge sitting in the chamber in my No. 4 does not have much radial clearance at the case head, not enough to cause this issue. But, it is a post-war barrel, perhaps the chamber was cut a bit tighter? My Dad's No. 4 (T) with a LB '58 six groove barrel doesn't do this either. I'm about to go test fire a Savage No. 4 with a F-51 barrel, I'll look closely and take some measurements.
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MarkG
Senior Member Joined: November 30 2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Yeah, you're right. It's probably because the rim isn't centred relative to the chamber, so the case expands to fit and the rim ends up being angled. So if the o-ring will centre the rim, the cases should come out a perfect fit and be easy to reload and re-use if they're neck-sized.
Anyone know what size of o-ring to use? I tried a few, but never found one that would fit the case and still allow it to chamber properly.
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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Dollar store for the tiny rubber hair bands that girls use for pony tails seem to work perfect.
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Goosic
Senior Member Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8792 |
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I have owned a fair amount of No4 Enfield rifles. Never had one produce the cases I was looking at last night. I figured it had something to do due with the chamber space. It shot pretty darn well so when I finally looked at the brass I was taken aback for a moment. I resized,cleaned primed and reloaded one case. It looks fine. It has permanent ring around the collar...
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Honkytonk
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4770 |
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I had this happen to me many years ago when I first started reloaded. I believe it was Winchester brass. Mild powder load, probably 20 out of a bag of 50 "leaned." No split necks or rims. I switched brass and never another issue.
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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I cant suggest if it will be fine or not to shoot. But I can tell you that I have done much the same with Winchester brass that I banana'd in a large chamber, and it split on the first reload. Winchester has soft thin brass apparently.
Your reload is straight now, but when you shoot the round, it will do it again and stretch wonky. The brass could be overworked already by squishing it back into place. You might just have a very short brass life. But I can see a case head separation happening somewhere down the reloading line..
If you are adventurous and can get the barrel into a lathe, one idea would be to set the barrel back by one thread and use a SAAMI spec reamer to rechamber. A new out of the carton round of commercial ammunition with head space set tight, will have almost no case stretch fire forming and will last many reloads. |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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One of the big things to remember with .303 is its rimmed. You've discovered the difference between "Headspace" & a "Generous Chamber"! The thickness of the brass makes a huge difference, way more so than the O.D. Look at the sectioned cases I posted & you can see the difference. Brass always blows out to fit. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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I have a similar issue with my No4Mk1\2 rifle. PPU brass last longer than remington in this rifle. The brass shot in this rifle will not chamber in my No4Mk1 or my No1MkIII*. So now tend to full length resize. Having got to the range with a box of ammo that didn't fit one time!
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