JJ&Co JJ Jovino. lithgow or bitster? |
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Posted: July 19 2019 at 2:21pm |
This came up a couple of times & I had an hour or 2 to kill so I did an internet search. This is the sum of all that I discovered. Much of it comes from, but is not limited to : Dr. Skip Stratton, who published this warning on his Enfield rifles on his website & Greg
Young's Alaska Enfield Headquarters site. No. 1 Mk III* (Lithgow - "New") Where JJ Co used unissued receivers,
they did not have serial numbers on them from Lithgow. For knowledgeable collectors of Lithgow Enfields, these assembled new rifles are pretty easy to spot by their light colored stocks and parkerized finish. Another dead give away for the assembled rifles is that they are not in the normal Lithgow serial number ranges. Most of the assembled rifles have serial numbers that either start with a "G" prefix or have a "A" suffix. import marks on your Lithgow on the right hand side of receiver just above the wood line in front of the bolt handle? If so, I think it you look hard at your import marks, you will see that they are actually IA CO SAC CA but the first "I" looks like a "T" due to the mark being stamped at an angle. I have had a couple of the IA imported Lithgow rifles with the IA CO SAC CA import marks on the location I mentioned and others with the import marks on the bottom of the charger bridge on the right side. IA was the "Inter American" company and they imported a lot if military surplus arms as well as new AKs and Sks. If I remember right, they went out of business around 2005 or so. Anyhow, they had some pretty nice Lithgows as well as some not so nice like any importer. They did not assemble rifles from NOS parts either like Jovino did. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Bear43
Special Member Donating Member Joined: August 11 2010 Location: Doland, SD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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Any chance we could get this made into a sticky, Shamu? It's something that comes up regular enough to warrant it, I think.
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Shamu
Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 17603 |
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Not sure! I stickied it but its not showing up that way? we'll see. edited. the "pin" just showed up when I refreshed the page. |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Bear43
Special Member Donating Member Joined: August 11 2010 Location: Doland, SD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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It is showing up as a sticky for me now. It wasn't last night for some reason.
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Shamu
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I think we were seeing data from our cache before the pin, when we came back the page updated with new data?
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Thanks for posting these details. Are there any examples where the JJ&Co is legit for a Lithgow gun? I'm a new collector and trying to learn. There is a gun being offered as a No1mk3* 1917 (heavily used, not promoted as new) but it has the above referenced receiver. thanks. |
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BJ72
Senior Member Joined: August 24 2019 Location: Qld Australia Status: Offline Points: 109 |
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JJ&Co did purchase and resell complete Lithgow made and assembled rifles. Some of the rifles they sold were every bit as good as any other Lithgow. They also assembled a lot of rifles from parts. Unfortunately these parts guns have tarnished the reputation of all JJ&Co marked guns. The only way to tell if it's genuine is to inspect it very carefully and make sure all the markings are correct for that production or refurbishment period. If the rifle you're looking at was made in 1917, it was most likely arsenal refurbished at least once in it's life. If refurbished by Lithgow in the late 40's it will be marked R M/A and the year on the butt. If it went through the Lithgow FTR program in the 50s it will be stamped FTR near the serial number and M/A and the year on the lower left side of the receiver just above the trigger guard. At lot of these early WW1 era Lithgow rifles also ended up in the UK or elsewhere and could have been refurbished by another country. We also need to remember these JJ&Co rifles have been in circulation now for quite some time and may well have been messed with since JJ&Co sold them. Most of the JJ&Co parts guns Ive seen have been made on later production receivers, especially 1945 receivers. As far as collectable rifles go, I just stay well clear or anything marked JJ&Co. Even if you think it's original, you still have to convince the next guy if you go to sell it. If you just want a good looking shooter and the rifle is in good serviceable condition (if in doubt have it checked by a decent gunsmith), the JJ&Co stamp definitely wont make it shoot any better or worse. There are plenty of JJ&Co guns out there that shoot just as good as the next Lithgow. If you're more into acquiring a collectable rifle, there's still plenty of Lithgow made No1 Mk3's out there without that annoying JJ&Co stamp.
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My idea of gun control is hitting what I aim at and nothing else.
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Thanks for the details and great advice. I recently purchased Ian Skennerton’s book and am looking forward to having this reference. I am looking for a collectible, so patience is a virtue!
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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thats a great sticky , some of us learned this old school - we can now say the younger among us are armed with better info than we were , so much to learn and so little time ,
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MJ11
Senior Member Joined: September 18 2008 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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This is well covered ground but wroth posting again. 1944 E prefix |
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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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great info always worth sharing and beautiful rifles
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Great info and great patterns!
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Hi Shamu, I reference your write up on import marks frequently it was excellent and spot on. Thank You again. Over the past 6 months I have seen lots of poor examples from JJCO exactly as you described them. I have tended to stop researching as soon as I realize an example is Imported. However I came across a nice example from IA CO SAC CO and I am having a hard time dismissing it. My research on IA Co matches yours. they are out of business now. It is a MKIII* has all the numbers match, seems period correct, and doesn't appear to be refinished in any way. I noticed you mentioned you have some IA CO's in your collection - should the import mark dissuade me from my first (attempted) purchase of a 30 if otherwise it seems to be a good example...or do I keep on looking! Also, is it reasonable to ask the seller to take photos of the fore-end to confirm the copper-blocks? Here is a link to a site with some good references to importers. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/imports.html Here is a photo of the import mark. I also see the AUSTRALIA .303 stamp - is this also an importer mark? I read BJ72 post about refurbishment - does the Butt marks imply this was refurbished at some point, I dont see the R/MA marks and I dont see any FTR markings. My understanding is this could be a Happy to send other photos if interested. Thanks Geoff
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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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this is an old thread but one worthy of resurrection , these important bits of information could save a buyer or make him pass on a great deal on a really fine rifle , read it closely - it does not say - do not buy , it says some should not be bought , there were a lot that were well worth buying , it is why bear wanted a sticky ,
your rifle , from what i see , looks fine , but then im not seeing everything here , the importer marks do not mean its been refurbed , only that it was imported , from austrailia - not a bad thing at all , the buttstock markings indicate its status and no , there is no FTR indicated , we need to see a lot more of the rifle to say anything more , but what i see is OK to go , meaning id buy that buttstock with minor questions ,
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devrep
Senior Member Joined: October 28 2020 Location: florida Status: Offline Points: 625 |
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MAO means rifle factory no. 3 at Lithgow. HV means it was sighted for high velocity ammunition. there is probably an HV stamp on the barrel in front of the knox form. make sure the serial number is on the receiver, on the bolt, on the nose cap below the muzzle and on the wood on the bottom of the fore-end at the muzzle end. looks good so far but post a bunch of photos in the rifle section.
here is some good info: ffs001_smle_markings (2).pdf
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double gun
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AussieShooter
Senior Member Joined: April 14 2019 Location: Chicago, IL Status: Offline Points: 343 |
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Hi Devrep - I could open the link - is there a trick to opening.
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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
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