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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Paint on magazines
    Posted: November 30 2023 at 9:10am
Not 2-tone. it was a single paint over park I guess?
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2023 at 9:36pm
if your mummy wrapped no4 came with a two tone , i agree , i was responding to op as a suggestion , which may well be a false lead but they did do a lot of painting and did not follow the norms for british service [rebellious nature ?] i cant imagine that ..........or maybe i can , im not as familiar with how the empire treated the indians but im aware of how they treated us , i know there is a great span of time between the two but ...did the empire change its ways a lot ? 

not throwing any rocks here , just pointing out that we were treated badly back then , i get it we were an upstart that seemed to be unwilling to kowtow to their whims but ...we had a point and we made it clear , im very fond of my enfields and bit unfound of my scots roots , but hey we we scotsman got kinda a raw deal too , part of why my scots elders left for canada and austrailia - the two brothers were not inclined to stay in that situation , 

dont know a lot of how the ausie side fared but from what my folks said they prospered there , the candaian side moved south to ohio then on to arkansas , i think that might speak volumes , im glad they did , thus my current avitar of the arkansas flag , albeit of the time in our history when our government was trying to exert itself upon us , 

all that aside , the indians did their own thing ....even though this is not always apricated in our realm its why that area of our collections is not always conformant to british standards 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2023 at 10:48am
One of mine came with the mummy-wrapped No4s so I don't think that Indian is definitive although possible.
My Lithy No1 MkIII has a painted mag too.




Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2023 at 9:16pm
wonder if that finish is indian ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2023 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by RichardSuhkoi RichardSuhkoi wrote:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/03cTg9DRGSr6T8ZPLga3R7kUQ

I found a blue painted mag professional quality enamel, as in factory or pro coating. Anyone recognize this??

The No4 mag is a Long Branch/Canadian Arsenal made item.
I cannot assist you with the No1Mk111 magazine...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2023 at 2:40pm
I've seen & own a couple of painted ones just like that.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RichardSuhkoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2023 at 2:13pm
https://share.icloud.com/photos/03cTg9DRGSr6T8ZPLga3R7kUQ

I found a blue painted mag professional quality enamel, as in factory or pro coating. Anyone recognize this??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2019 at 1:43pm
The Mad Minute is more than just whaling a bunch of ammo downrange fast! You also have to hit a target (which is quite large) & ONLY the rounds striking the target count for score. Originally the 4' X 4' "figure" target was at 300 yds, but you could scale down for 100 if you don't have a 300 yd range.

If you want to try here's some info to help you plan a shoot.
I'd suggest practicing the drill with DP rounds you'll need the experience.

The target & technique is described here in great detail.

"Mad minute” was a term used by British riflemen during training to describe scoring 15 hits onto a target at 300 yd (274.3 m) within one minute using a bolt-action rifle. It was not uncommon during the First World War for riflemen to greatly exceed this score. Many riflemen could average 30+ shots, while the record, set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall was 38 hits.

[ Ian V. Hogg, The Encyclopedia of Weaponry, Sterling Publishing, New York 2006.]

At the turn of the century the British Army was the most professional in the world with each soldier trained to be an expert marksman.   The Mad Minute itself is arguably a myth surrounded by myth, its proper name was Serial 22, Table B of the Musketry Regulations classification course of fire. Which instructed a soldier to fire rapidly into a distant target with 15 rounds being a target. However, this was not a requirement as the rifleman’s scores were calculated by aggregate with the other stages of the classification. The exercise of firing as many rounds as possible was probably a challenge set for fun to encourage pride in marksmanship and to see just how many rounds it was possible to fire in a minute. During the musketry classifications shoots of recruits and again shot each year by all infantrymen, engineers and cavalrymen to gauge how good of a shot they were. 

The classification shoot was shot in several stages shot out to 600 yards, the various stages or serials were laid out in Table B, Appendix II in the Musketry Regulations Pt.1,  these included grouping with 5 rounds at 100 yards, snap shooting with 5 rounds out at 200 yards, two 5 round stages fired slowly with the first at 400 yards from the prone position and another at 300 yards from kneeling.   Then came the so called ‘Mad Minute’ stage fired from prone at a target 300 yards out.   This was to be fired with 5 rounds loaded - 1 in the chamber and 4 in the magazine, the rifleman would then reload with 5-round chargers firing until 60 seconds had elapsed.  The target used for this stage was the Second Class figure target which was a 4 foot screen with a 12 inch high figure silhouette at the centre surrounded by two rings, a 23 inch inner ring and a 36 inch outer ring.   This stage was then followed by three final stages fired from prone out to 500 and 600 yards. 

The first and confirmed record for the most hits on target during a ’Mad Minute’  was set by Sgt-Major Jesse Wallingford - 36 hits at 300 yards in 1 minute in 1908.  However, this was allegedly bettered in 1914, by Sergeant-Instructor Alfred Snoxall with 38 hits within the 24 inch inner ring in 60 seconds.  It has not been beaten since although there is little documentary evidence of the feat readily available. This means Snoxall must have averaged around 1.5 seconds per shot to hit the target 38 times in a minute. Quite a feat.

Each man to shoot the classification course was allotted points for where each round hit - 4 points for a ‘bull’ figure hit, 3 for a hit in the inner ring and 2 points for an outer ring hit.  Troops could be classified as follows: Marksman (with at least 130 points out of 200 across the classification), 1st Class (105-130 points), 2nd Class and 3rd Class (sub-standard).  The majority of British troops, even cavalry, were excellent marksman with 50% of troops in some battalions scored as Marksman with the rest being 1st and 2nd class shots.  



The magazine and repeating bolt action of the Lee Enfield, adopted at the very dawn of the 20th century, allowed for an unprecedented volume of fire. The fast-operating Lee bolt-action and large magazine capacity enabled a well-trained rifleman to perform the "Mad minute" firing 20 to 30 aimed rounds in 60 seconds, making the Lee-Enfield the fastest military bolt-action rifle of the day. The Lee-Enfield Resource website has a video of 15 rounds in one minute, aimed, but no reference to the methodology & techniques used originally. It was not uncommon during the First World War for British Empire servicemen to beat this record! On average a rifleman could fire twenty-five shots, and some could even make it to forty shots.”



Supposedly there is a formal “Mad Minute reenactment” annually in the U.K.

During the 'mad minute' British riflemen were required to hit a target 300 meters away, with at least fifteen rounds fired in sixty seconds; one round every four seconds. A modern-day, semi-trained guerrilla soldier with a semi, or fully automatic assault rifle can easily top that, although not with the same accuracy, but the Lee-Enfield was a bolt action rifle, requiring the soldier to rotate and cycle a bolt with his hand between each shot. The rifle fired the powerful .303 British cartridge, which had a hefty recoil, and the magazine could only hold ten rounds, requiring several reloads during the minute.

Reloading a bolt-action rifle of the time involved sliding bullets from 5-round Chargers (stripper clips) down into the magazine from above. The Lee Enfield required two five-round clips, and debate still rages as to the best method for ensuring high-speed fire; polishing the clip guides, flipping the bolt with the thumb and forefinger of the right hand whilst firing with the middle finger, or even reloading with the Lee-Enfield's detachable magazine (not usually recommended due to manufacturing imperfections which could cause each magazine to be of a slightly different size).

The mad minute turned out to be extremely useful in the early stages of the Great War, when the lightly-armed British Expeditionary Force was on the defensive; the BEF's soldiers could put up a tremendous, murderous volume of fire against advancing close-formation German troops, many of whom reported that they were facing machine-guns. The upper limits of aimed fire in the mad minute were 30-35 rounds per minute, slightly more than one round every two seconds, including the time taken to cycle the bolt and stuff several clips into the rifle.

Here is probably the best-documented methodology available, but most of the documents & records from the period are destroyed so even this is speculative! Remember this was a "set up" World Record attempt, so there was a lot of manipulation & setup involved!

Targets

On military ranges, where most full-bore shoots take place, targets are chosen according to the distance and course of fire. As time changed so did supplies, several targets were used at varying periods starting with the 4’X4’ Second Class figure target (an “Hourglass “bull” surrounded by rings), but by the time I was learning it had updated to the Figure 11. This is 44 inches high by 17 inches wide and depicts a charging infantry soldier.

The drill happened during WW1 so we can assume it was done from a trench standing with the rifle supported on a sandbag. A bench & bag is a reasonable substitute if you don't feel like digging a bloody great hole in the range firing line!

Load up at least 8 chargers with 5 rounds each!

The rifle is not slung & (this is vital) the buttstock never leaves the shoulder. Resist the temptation to "look at the bullets going in". Use tension from the left forearm to keep the buttplate in position firmly pressed into the shoulder pocket throughout. Try to keep the muzzle pointed at the bullseye as well, this is why the positioning setup is so important, the rifle should recover from recoil almost naturally if you do it right.

The bolt operation is done by butting the bolt knob in the bent right hand's "trigger finger" & held in place by the right thumb. That finger/thumb never leave the bolt handle, except when grabbing another loaded charger from the right front of the shooter's position. The second finger is used for the trigger operation exclusively. If you get it set up just right (which needs practice) you'll find as the bolt is "whipped sharply" into the closed & locked position the second finger presses the trigger without you doing anything except keeping it rigid. This takes a bit of practice but is almost instinctive when you get it down pat.



Now you're set up here's the actual firing drill.



Get prone or benched & rested & set up position so you naturally point at the life sized silhouette target at 300yds. (You can use a reduced size one at 100yds if you like.)

LOAD 11 rounds. (2 chargers & one "up the spout").

Fire 6 rounds as quickly as you can re-acquire the target. Time (1 Minute) starts here at the sound of the first shot.

Breathe! while charging magazine.

You have fired 6 rounds & have 5 rounds left, DO NOT close the bolt on round #7, just whack in a charger with 5 more rounds & snap the bolt forward to eject the empty clip.

You have 10 rounds loaded.

Fire 6 rounds as quickly as you can re-acquire the target.

Breathe. while charging magazine.

Keep repeating the "fire 6, charge 5" until either the minute is up or you run out of bullets after 38 rounds fired! Once you’ve fully emptied the magazine (assuming you’re still going) just dump in 5-round chargers & fire them off to complete the one minute time frame.

If you fire 38 congratulations you beat Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall’s World Record! Most can fire 15~20 aimed shots in a minute with just a day or two's practice, but the world record set in 1914 was 38!

Some rules for the course:

From Small Arms Training Volume No1, pamphlet No1.

No sling is permitted.

Pp28, 27, I

No sighting shots permitted

Pp28, 27, ii

Misfires. If the cap is proven struck round replaced & time to use allowed.

Pp28, 27, iv(a)

Forfeiture of rounds: Failure to fire in time is scored as “miss”

Pp28, 27, v

Firing after time allotted. Highest possible score for round is deducted.

Pp28, 27, vi



Rested” is a sandbag supporting the forearm & wrist, no contact with weapon.

Pp28, 28, (a)."

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2019 at 11:54am
Personally I'm not keen on doing a mad minute. I understand it's very useful when your in a trench with a new rifle and a crowd of Germans heading your way!

But these day's of paper targets, seems to me to be potentially causing excessive heat and wear in a 100 year old rifle; plus it's about 30 quids worth of ammo' a minute if your good at it!

But of course we are all free to choose how we use our rifles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Prince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2019 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

This may sound stupid, but we always called the little chain that went from the magazine to the trigger guard the "Battle Chain." So you wouldn't lose the magazine and turn your rifle into a single shot. Any truth to that? 

Just like this one.
 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Black Prince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2019 at 2:39am
Mad minute.
The thought got me going.................. was it standing, prone, bench!!!!!
This is something I'd have to have a go at.


My youngest son is always talking about it,Mnnnnnnnn. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zormpas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Back to the Original Post question. The paint job was not factory.  That looks to me to be the work of a Bubba.

Thanx - that's kinda the question I wanted to know the answer to!

But it begs the question: What happened to the original paint? We'll probably never know...
-Zorba
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 3:18pm
This may sound stupid, but we always called the little chain that went from the magazine to the trigger guard the "Battle Chain." So you wouldn't lose the magazine and turn your rifle into a single shot. Any truth to that? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 2:55pm
Actually, even individual rounds were regulated in British service."With 5 Rounds LOAD"!
As was firing them!
"3 rounds, slow fire, farmhouse at 400 yds next to the tree upper right window, set your sights! ON MY MARK, (Wait for it) OPEN FIRE"!

Yes, its crazy, but you must remember that we were JUST moving away from magazine cutoffs! You need permission from an NCO or Officer to actually use the rounds IN your magazine instead of single loading! Weapons control was so tight that you (& one other) were ONLY allowed to clean a rifle with the pull through! After both had cleaned yours you'd reverse & both clean his. "Cleaning rods" as we know them were ONLY to be used by NCO's or an armourer!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 12:55pm
(I would be grateful to be educated on that - do you have any official instructions detailing that as it was absolutely forbidden to do that in the British Army.
Where would they get the spare magazines from ?)

The only thing for certain that I can educate you on is that when you are being shot at from the enemy,absolutely NOTHING is forbidden to keep you alive and your platoon. You do what is needed and necessary during a firefight, regardless of rules. As far as spare magazines go? Liberated from broken rifles,or from a soldier who will no longer need it? Before deployment work a deal out with the base armory? The list is endless sir.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by Zormpas Zormpas wrote:

[QUOTE=Honkytonk]
I normally load via (strippers).


 
"The problem with doing that is that the magazines were not designed for removal and taking out / putting back."



However,it was quite common during wartime open firefight conditions to have multiple preloaded magazines on ones self so when the time arose to reload the soldier dropped the empty mag and slammed a loaded one in place and kept going as opposed to trying to grab a charging clip and thumb those bullets in place.



I would be grateful to be educated on that - do you have any official instructions detailing that as it was absolutely forbidden to do that in the British Army.


Where would they get the spare magazines from ?

Only one magazine was 'on issue' per rifle.

It is quicker to load from chargers than it is to change a magazine.

It is still an amazing achievement that the record the most shots fired (and on target), for any bolt action rifle EVER (yes even today) in one minute is held by the Lee Enfield and the reason for the 'mad-minute' competition we have today.

The Mad Minute was a pre-World War I bolt-rifle speed shooting exercise used by British Army riflemen, using the Lee–Enfield service rifle. The exercise formally known as "Practice number 22, Rapid Fire, ‘The Musketry Regulations, Part I, 1909", required the rifleman to fire 15 rounds at a "Second Class Figure" target at 300 yd (270 m). The practice was described as; "Lying. Rifle to be loaded and 4 rounds in the magazine before the target appears. Loading to be from the pouch or bandolier by 5 rounds afterwards. One minute allowed".

The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 moa).Another world record of 38 hits, all within the 24 inch target at 300 yards (2.25 mils/ 7.6 moa), is said to have been set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall,
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