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Powder type and projectiles weight

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philtno View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 13 2019 at 10:28pm
Hi,
It's been 4 months now that I've started reloading my .303 for my 1943 Longbranch #4Mk1* and I've tried several powders and bullet weights.
What follows is just my understanding of the various results I got with those powders and projectiles. 
I'm new to reloading, new to the LE and just at the beginning of my learning curve, I guess, and would like to have your point on my (very basic) analysis.
I tried H4895, IMR3031 and Varget with Speer 150gn SP (.311), Hornady 174gn RN (.312), Hornady 150gn SP (.312) and S&B 150 SP (.311).
I got some more-than-decent results with some of these combinations at 100m. 
I got very good results with IMR3031 associated with the Speer 150gn (.311) but got poor results with the same powder associated with the heavier 174gn (.312), no matter the loads (tried 5-6 different loadings), while I got average-to-poor results with the H4985 associated with the 174gn, here again, no matter the loads, but very good results with the 150gn (mostly the .312 and to a lesser extent with the .311's).  The results, I managed to reproduce them, so I wouldn't say it was just random findings.
 
According to you guys, is this just due to the rifle (my Old Boy, I named him Archibald Wink, being just one of many kinds)? or does that make full sense because the lighter bullets generally much accommodate the slightly faster burning powder while heavy bullets much prefer slower burning powder?
I really enjoy reloading and try different combinations with powders, projectiles, bullet seating etc.... it's fun!! But I would like to be able to come up with - at least - some form of rationale, being only applicable to my Old Boy or relevant across the board. thanks a lot in advance for your help.
Philtno
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2019 at 3:36pm
Philtno, I don’t think there is a universal rule on what performs best.  Although I do believe a good match load will perform good in most rifles.  That might seem a contradictory statement, but I have found this to be true in my experience.  Back in the day, matches were all shot with ammunition issued for the match and it was believed that this leveled the playing field so that shooters could not “game” the system and fine tune their loads to gain advantage from others who don’t reload and use issue ammunition.  The major annual matches (meetings) at Bisley, DCRA in Connaught and other commonwealth nations had their ammunition contractors produce a run of “match grade” ammo.  I have some of this ammunition and it still shoots very good from several No. 4 rifles I have.  The same story in the US for Camp Perry National Matches with the 1903 and M1 rifles shooting National Match .30-06. 

Ultimately, only your own testing will find what combination of bullet, powder and charge weight gives you the best results.  For me, that has been the 174 grain Sierra MatchKing or Hornady 174 match with either Varget or Re15.  This has given me 10 shot groups at 1.5 MOA extreme spread in several rifles (occasional groups sub-MOA).  If I had a mechanical rest, or could shoot like Goosic, I believe the rifle and ammo is sub-MOA consistently.  




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2019 at 5:08pm
Like britrifles stated.
Everyone of us has our own load that works best for us. You state that you are just starting out in reloading.  You also stated you are trying various powders,bullet weights,powder charges, etc,etc...
Slow down and back up a bit. Start with one powder and one bullet weight. Work up the load from minimum to just under maximum and compare the results between that round and that round only.
IMR3031 is excellent for the 150 grn SP bullet. IMR 4064 is excellent for anything 174 grn or heavier. You will figure it out,it just takes patience. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2019 at 6:17pm
Thank you very much for your input, britrifles Thumbs Up

Goosic, Yes, you're probably right, I should maybe have a more systematic approach and work one powder at a time.  And I understand patience is key...Smile
The thing is, I started shooting 20 rounds on the first day (PPU 150gn) just to have something to start reloading.  Then put my hand on some Greek surplus, bought 100 of them and had fun shooting the half of it the next week....along with the 20 reloaded ones.  As you may imagine, the 100 surplus did go past the third session at the range and now I'm reloading 100 rounds at a time (only because of my limited space in the ammo box LOL), and keeping a spreadsheet up to date with each and every load... and, in total, I may have shot something like 600-650 rounds since day one.  
My "impatience" probably comes from the fact that it's a new hobby for me, and, secondly, probably because I realised after a couple of months that the dipper coming from the Lee Loader was giving very varying and inconsistent loads, no matter how systematic I was trying to be.  That I discovered after having bought a digital scale.  Instead of giving me the 38.4gn of H4895 with the 2.8cc dip, I was getting readings fluctuating from 39.2 to 41.0 !!! which is more than 10% variation.... This means that I had to redo all the combinations I tried previously and, this time, rely on the scale...  
Also, reading experiences from others saying that they use this powder with that bullets and getting great results makes me willing to try those as well....
Again, I'm new to that....so I guess that's part of the learning curve Wink.
Cheers

Philtno


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2019 at 7:36am
This is my advice and my advice only.
Start out using 150 grn SP bullets,37.5 grns of IMR3031 powder,Fed 210 or WLR primers, and then go have fun. This is the best starter load for first time reloaders. Follow the reload book and set the OAL to 3.075".
If you have the IMR4064 and 150grn bullets,start with 39.0 grns.  If you have 174 or 180grn  bullets and IMR4064,start with 37.5 grns.
These are all beginners starting loads and will offer you fun and enjoyment without worries. The fps and chamber pressures will always be at a minimum as well. You own an Enfield and not an F class, less then a half minute of angle super shooter rifle. Remember that everytime you reload for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2019 at 2:47pm
Lots of different ways to approach this.  Start with what you have on hand.  You will need to be able to accurately measure the powder charges for reasons of safety and accuracy.  Start at the low end of the loading charts and work up.  Don’t exceed maximums.   Your powder charges need to be within +/- 0.2 gr max of the mean charge weight for good accuracy.  A good powder measure makes loading much faster.  I do not weigh individual charges, but I do check about every 10th round.  If your using a rotating drum type measure, you may find that rotating the drum slowly produces best consistency.  

By all means, get yourself some 174 gr match bullets if you are seeking accuracy.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2019 at 3:48pm
Thank you very much for your good advice, Goosic. Thumbs Up
That's pretty much what I'm doing now, after having wandering around the inconsistent weight the dipper was giving me, as I explained in my previous message, which was somewhere between the minimum and maximum recommended loads (Hornady 10th edition).  Then I started looking and sourcing different recommended loadings from different reload book (Speer and the comprehensive 303 reloading chart) and powder manufacturer (IMR/Hodgdon/ADI).....and that probably made me try to chase too many preys at the same time.  I should have taken one powder and maybe a couple of different bullets and play with them....juggling with three is easy...juggling with nine or ten is a complete other story Big smile.  I don't have anything to measure my velocity so I have to rely on the theoretical velocity provided by the loads/bullets combinations.
I think I would be struggling to keep the 3.075 OAL... I measured the chamber with different bullets shape and I'm already at 3.070 with 150gn Hornady SP.  Also, if I try to reach the 3.075 I will have the bullet just a few mm in the brass.... Can you please advise on that??
Cheers.
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2019 at 3:59pm
Thanks, britrifles, I really appreciate what you wrote Thumbs Up
As I explained in my reply to Goosic, that's pretty much what i'm ding now.  trying to be more systematic in my loadings.
Yes, the scale is essential, I realised that, and that's what I rely on.
Personnally, I weigh each load manually with a trickler, and I saw drastic change in accuracy.  I don't have any press or powder measure.  I use the old fashioned lee loader and caliper....it's tedious and slow but having to go manually through each of them rounds helps me staying focused on what I'm doing...(and probably helps my mental health as well as it gives me the chance to bang a hammer on something for a good reason, hahaha).
What follows may sound like a stupid question but, apart from being the righ weight and consistent diameter, what do "match bullets" have more than the classic Hornady 174gn Round Nose??
Cheers
Philtno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2019 at 4:22pm
Match bullets are made to more precise tolerances, particularly in the thickness of the jacket.  There is a reason why “Match” bullets win matches.  On a LE, you won’t realize the full accuracy potential of the match bullet, results will depend on numerous factors (barrel/bore condition, forend stocking up, etc.).  But, it worth the cost of 100 bullets to try them out.  

I’ve had very good accuracy with the 174 gr HPBT bullets with several powders including 3031.  4064 would give lower chamber pressure at the same velocity.  H4895 should work too.  I like Varget and Re 15 because it meters very consistently in my Redding powder measure.  When you load several hundred rounds a week, weighing each charge gets too time consuming.  I’ve not been able to detect a difference in accuracy with weighing each charge vs throwing charges to +/- 0.1 gr with my powder measure.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2019 at 7:36am
There's a trick with a dipper to get consistent charges, particularly with powders like 3031.
Using a wide mouth container scoop with a "D" shaped motion.
Go down in inverted, make the bottom of the "D" & come vertically back out, shake or tap gently to level.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2019 at 3:02pm
Thank you very much for your input, Shamu. 
Yes, that's what I was trying to achieve, I mean, I had a look at a few videos and every one was telling the same thing: have the same exact movements when filling the dipper.
For some reason, I was obviously struggling with consistency in the reading from the scale.
Now, the problem is solved as I measure everything with the scale...still using the dipper to get as close as possible to where i want to go :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2019 at 3:21pm
Went shooting yesterday with what I had on hand already reloaded last week and this is what two of my groups gave.  The left one is with H4895 37.0 gn and 150 SP bullets the right one is with Varget 42.0 gn and the same 150SP bullets (Hornady).  The two bottom flyers with the H4895 were my first two shots, before I realised that I had a reduced load compared to what I used to sight the rifle.  Best group at 50m yesterday was 3.5cm.  Of course, it's shot with iron sights....which is the only "real" way to do it LOL.
So, apparently, close to minimum load with H4895 and close to maximum load with Varget gave satisfying results (based on my standards, of course Wink).
Tried the Varget 42 gn at 100 m and it was not too bad but I don't have any photo on hand to show at the moment.
Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 1:46pm
I just saw this.
I'm not sure of the scale but those look like very good groups to me. You measure the distance between the OUTSIDE of one hole & the INSIDE of the furthest hole. (this subtracts the bullet diameter so its a center to center measurement). Anything under 3" & 100 yds for a 10 round group is very good for a battle rifle. If shooting "for score" its common practice to fire 2 "warming & fouling" shots off target FIRST, then shoot the "for score" group. A clean, cold barrel frequently is a different point of aim that an in use one!

Did you get the set of dippers, or just the one that came with the loader?
I ask because theres a trick I use that will save you a lot of time.
Lets say you want 38 grains of a given powder. You pick the next smallest dipper & weigh it. then you use a "trickler" to add the last little bit to get an exact weight! Its deadly accurate, inexpensive & much faster than dribbling to a weight!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 2:26pm
I've tried a few different powders in my Lee Enfields. IMR 4895 (like), H4350 (150 gr Sierra ProHunter liked), H335 (no like), and H4895 (like). I wanted to keep my loading station simple, just like me. For 150's and 180's, I found H4895 is a very consistent powder. It's all I have on hand. Projectiles? 150 gr Hornady Spire Points work great in the two No4's I shoot them out of. 180's? My Sniper clone likes the 174 SMK, a No4 Sporter likes Sierra ProHunter, my No5 the same. I didn't get a lot of shooting in the fall with my most recent rifle, a No1 MkIII so that's a spring project. I'll load up some 180 Sierra ProHunters, 174 SMKs, and some 174 Hornady RNs. Probably a grain or two over minimum charge, then go from there. It took a lot of shooting and notes to find the right combo for each rifle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Did you get the set of dippers, or just the one that came with the loader?
I ask because theres a trick I use that will save you a lot of time.
Lets say you want 38 grains of a given powder. You pick the next smallest dipper & weigh it. then you use a "trickler" to add the last little bit to get an exact weight! Its deadly accurate, inexpensive & much faster than dribbling to a weight!
Hi Shamu,
That's exactly what I'm doing Smile
I bought the whole set of 13 or 14 dippers (can't remember exactly how many they are) and do what you're describing.  Generally, the weight I'm getting with those dippers is higher than what the scale hat comes with the box says...So, yes, I'm using the next smaller dipper and complete with the trickler Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2020 at 4:42pm
 Philtno, did you have the same rear sight setting and point of aim on the target with both the 42 grains of Varget and 37 grains of H4895?  

The muzzle velocity with 42 gr Varget would be about 2600 fps vs 2500 fps with 37 gr H4895.  I would try 40.0 and 41.0 gr Varget.  

The groups look good, I suspect you won’t see much difference in accuracy with these loads within a range of 2 to 3 grains.  

As to the benefits of trickle charging to get the loads dead nuts on, you can prove to yourself that even charges that vary by  +/- 0.2 grains will be barely noticeable on the target, at least out to 200 yards.  I did this by shooting 10 shot groups of carefully weighed charges for 38.0, 39.0, 40.0 and 41.0 grains of IMR 4064.  I then calculated the mean point of impact at 100 yards for each of these 4 loads and plotted the results.  It was surprisingly linear with the elevation MPI increasing at 0.83 inches per grain.  So, if your powder measure can throw charges to within 0.2 grains, this equates to only 0.16 inch variation in elevation.  For a rifle that is grouping at 2 MOA (2 inches at 100 yards) you won’t notice this small difference.  There are other factors that cause the variation in vertical dispersion.  

Now, if your shooting an heavy barrel match rifle out to 600 yards and beyond, trickle charging to get the charges to less than +/-0.1 grains is probably worth it.  Someone on another forum claimed he loaded his cases to within +/- 0.005 grains, I guess he used an xacto knife to cut that last stick of powder and shave it down to get it that good.  


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